Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

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hamburski
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Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by hamburski »

I'm trying to shape the contour of a MIDI string line and before even getting into the expression and volume controllers I want to tweak the velocity of specific notes. But when I grab the handle of a specific note or highlight the note and adjust its numeric level at the top of the sequence window, nothing seems to change - I get the same sample played back whether its velocity is set at 5 or 125. I'm going to start troubleshooting by swapping in different samples and so on, but I thought I'd see here first if there was something I was missing, as I've had this come up before on other projects.
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FMiguelez
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by FMiguelez »

It's as if your VI is not getting the velocity changes.

Are you using any MIDI plug-ins such as Humanize or the Velocity one?

Are you sure the samples you're trying to fire have more than one velocity layer?

Some VIs, like the Vienna stuff, have a setting that prevents velocity from altering samples and you must use its cross-velocity mapped to a CC instead. This is an on/off switch.
Does your VI have something like that that could be engaged?

I would try testing velocity with any other VI or synth, just to determine if it's a DP or your VI issue.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by stubbsonic »

Also, make sure you are grabbing the attack velocity and not the release velocity. Attack velocity is the one with the downward arrow next to it.

It is possible that the VI doesn't have a very responsive velocity response, especially if it is expecting to have expression controlling it's contours.
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FMiguelez
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by FMiguelez »

stubbsonic wrote:Also, make sure you are grabbing the attack velocity and not the release velocity. Attack velocity is the one with the downward arrow next to it.
Ha! Good call!

I completely forgot about that.
I found the off velocity so annoying and useless, that I hid them from view since day one of my DP adventure, like more than a decade ago :)

Are there VIs that do something upon velocity off variations? I've never heard of anything being affected or mapped to them...
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HCMarkus
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by HCMarkus »

FMiguelez wrote:
stubbsonic wrote:Also, make sure you are grabbing the attack velocity and not the release velocity. Attack velocity is the one with the downward arrow next to it.
Ha! Good call!

I completely forgot about that.
I found the off velocity so annoying and useless, that I hid them from view since day one of my DP adventure, like more than a decade ago :)

Are there VIs that do something upon velocity off variations? I've never heard of anything being affected or mapped to them...
Sometimes release time.

+1 on hiding
hamburski
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by hamburski »

Didn't see all these responses till now, thanks! I'll poke around and see if it's the particular VI (Spitfire Chamber Strings) as I don't seem to have this trouble with Superior Drummer and some others. Maybe it's a Kontakt issue; I'll have to eliminate some variables to see.

Agreed, off-velocities are something I never use and didn't think of hiding them! If I can't figure out how, I'll be back to ask :-)
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by FMiguelez »

hamburski wrote: Agreed, off-velocities are something I never use and didn't think of hiding them! If I can't figure out how, I'll be back to ask :-)
Command-F.

You can save sets of what you wish to view.
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by stubbsonic »

In MIDI we have three controls that act on each individual note, and bunches that affect the entire MIDI channel.

The three per-note controls are at the start, middle and end of the note. At the beginning, we have attack velocity. In the middle we have (potentially) a stream of values called Polyphonic aftertouch. Relatively few keyboards generate this, though it should be possible to add and edit it post recording. And at the end of the note we have release velocity.

The release velocity is used for any thing that you want to be controlled by how quickly you release the key. Yes, release velocity is a GREAT one! With a piano, you can actually have more key up (hammer return and key-up thud) with a faster release. You can set up a timpany roll where the key-up triggers a note and the release velocity controls the amp and velocity-switch of that sound. There's quite a few applications for it, that are nicely expressive when tweaked right.
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FMiguelez
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by FMiguelez »

stubbsonic wrote:In MIDI we have three controls that act on each individual note, and bunches that affect the entire MIDI channel.

The three per-note controls are at the start, middle and end of the note. At the beginning, we have attack velocity. In the middle we have (potentially) a stream of values called Polyphonic aftertouch...
Interesting.
Are polyphonic or monophonic aftertouch an effect themselves, or are they a parameter that one maps to any VI control as desired?

My keyboard can produce them. I actually remember turning those off too because it was annoying seeing them when unintended, and, IIRC, they kind of made things wobble.

How are they useful? Maybe I'm missing something cool I don't know about... Could I, for instance, program volume to respond to aftertouch?
stubbsonic wrote: The release velocity is used for any thing that you want to be controlled by how quickly you release the key. Yes, release velocity is a GREAT one! With a piano, you can actually have more key up (hammer return and key-up thud) with a faster release. You can set up a timpany roll where the key-up triggers a note and the release velocity controls the amp and velocity-switch of that sound. There's quite a few applications for it, that are nicely expressive when tweaked right.
Nice! Thank you for that!
But how would one map or program the off velocity to a sample library? I mean, you can only do it with a library that allows it, like your piano/hammer and timpani examples, yes?

Now I'm going to have to see if VSL has a programmable parameter that can come from a release velocity... :)

I mean, I use the note off events to fire the release samples automatically, but the release velocity... Hmmmm....
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stubbsonic
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by stubbsonic »

Polyphonic Aftertouch can be used anytime you want to control one note without affecting all other held notes. You can assign it like you assign any CC. Yes, one of the problems with Aftertouch generally is calibrating it so you won't hear it unless you want it. I turned it off on my keyboard as well.

You use standard aftertouch if you have a monophonic part. However, the downside with aftertouch is that it must always start and end at zero. You press to get to the desired controller value, but it is difficult to control even in the best of circumstances.

Newer innovations give us some more options, but with the standard MIDI spec, there are compromises.

A dream synth could have velocity as one static value at the beginning of a note, and also finger position vertically on the key could control something else (either in a static way, like velocity, or in realtime, like polyAT). This is more ideal because you can start or end on a non-zero value and you can control the value more effectively.

As for release, you can assign release velocity with VI's that recognize it in their controls list. Not all of them do. For strings and winds, if you want a short abrupt release or long elegant decayed release, release velocity is a very intuitive way to achieve this-- but you also have to work within the realistic confines of how the release work so it must be tweaked carefully.
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by mhschmieder »

With all of the recent updates in piano libraries (and new products), I'd like to reinforce how important the Note Off value is for realism!

I am lucky that I still have some parts recorded in both MIDI and audio, from when I had Yamaha keyboards that properly handled Note Off velocity. Many keyboards don't, and either set to all-zero, all-64, all-80, or all-100 (the most common choices) or set to match Note On velocity (something that MOST Yamaha keyboards I have owned, seem to do).

I didn't really fully understand "Note Off" until recently, because my ears are how I judge things and I couldn't hear a difference. But now that more vendors are properly implementing it, BOY can I tell!

My guess is that most developers don't understand it, due to confusing and contradictory specs and articles. More often than not, I see "experts" write that it is a redundant MIDI message for legacy keyboards that didn't know to end a note based on note length and/or (when monophonic or polyphony-limited) at the next Note On event. And many variations of the "redundancy" argument.

Pianoteq definitely sounds different (and pretty bad, if you have sharp ears for phrasing fluidity) if you set all of your Note Off values to zero. And if I import MIDI from other sources, or have MIDI files entered from non-ideal keyboards, I try to remember to look for Note Off values and make sure they are at least set to a semi-neutral "64" mid-way value, for least harm to phrasing. My ears can tell.

Anyway, if you have good enough ears, listening to stuff with Note Off as part of the MIDI data (via the filtering methods mentioned above, or by editing to zero or non-zero), can be a good way to test the capabilities of a VI, library, or even piece of hardware gear.
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by stubbsonic »

Yea. It's often disappointing when some heavy-duty synth omits release velocity as a control source. (I think SynthMaster and Dune 2 both blew it off).

I have keyboards that transmit release velocity, and when I have time and need of it, I like to tweak the release time based on release velocity. Another application, I used to fake timpani rolls by adding a key-up layer, and using release velocity to control level. Granted, I could use attack velocity and that would probably work fine, but at least on principle, the idea of being able to have direct control of the note with release velocity is "comforting", and the result is effective.

I love how pianoteq responds to key release. It is just one of the factors that makes me feel like I'm there at a piano.
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Re: Velocity level doesn't seem to make a difference

Post by reedster »

About velocity sensitivity, Customer Support over at Spitfire says: "Yes, on the short articulations."
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