Another weird one - L/R phase issues (now w/ video)

[italodisco]

Holy crap. Check this out.

I was recording a mono drum machine hi-hat in stereo (lazy reason: via API2500 with stereo outs on console). I do this all the time. Once recorded into DP, the right and left were out of phase - like one was delayed, rather, because it was a significant amount that the right channel was behind the left. You could hear the flam.

I checked my console, my bundles, made sure there was no feedback, no effects, no outboard acting weird. Couldn't figure it out! It was NOT the source as proven at the end of this post - so eliminate that as a variable. I was not monitoring through DP, however, because with my setup you hear the buffer/echo. However even if I did monitor-enable, obviously both stereo sides would be buffered/echoing the same amount (= buffer amount).

I'm driving myself crazy to the point of nothing but the hi-hat being up on the console and routing into DP. All inputs muted on the board. Nothing but the track on in DP. Everything looks fine in RME's interface, which is anyway not in the recording path (monitoring only, like CueMix). Sounds fine monitoring it out of the speaker. Record in, and L & R not synced up in the stereo recorded file. What the heck? Why?! (It's like some DAW version of an Edgar Allen Poe story.)

I restart and try again. Same thing.
I examine bundles again. Seems fine.
I change the input in question to none, then back to stereo input bundle I was using. Same problem!

The fix: deleting all inputs bundles, then creating new one. Now it's back to normal.

Anyone else ever see this?

[italodisco]

No one else has seen this? Just happened on another project.

Gonna try to get a video capture because with MOTU tech support, if you don't have video, it doesn't exist. This impression courtesy of my last bug report with quantize errors.

[mikehalloran]

Since the track is mono, why not record it that way? Duplicate the track and pan R/L if you need to apply different effects to each side.

Are you sure it's a DP issue? Could it really be the outputs on your hardware? Is there a step-down transformer anywhere in it?

[italodisco]

Thanks for the reply but I find it flummoxing when people tell me to do something differently when it's DP that's misbehaving. Think of it as a lab test. I know how to get things done the other way; I just want to know why it's acting weird.

Hardware outputs? I'm looking at a waveform with L and R in different places. The fact that if I delete all bundles, make a new one and the problem goes away - with no repatching or anything else, using the same inputs, and L and R are now perfectly lined up - seems to put the blame squarely on DP. The issue occurs way before the D/A if MOTU's display of the waveform (confirmed by listening) is to be trusted.

Another bug today: made a mono track to record into. When I looked at it in the mixer after, it was a stereo track playing just the left side. It acted like a mono track and was labeled a mono track (indicated by single tilde) - I could pan it and everything. But it was displayed as 100% playing in the left side, nothing in the right. Said mono and everything. Restarted, and now it's a mono track!

Something is f'd up. Using 9.17. Afraid to upgrade since I never used to have these issues.

[HCMarkus]

Think of it as a lab test. I know how to get things done the other way; I just want to know why it's acting weird.

And a good one! Definite misbehavior.

Perhaps you might care to share your OS and version of DP. Unless I missed something, 9.17 is not yet out... You can add the info to your signature; it is sometimes helpful!

[mikehalloran]

find it flummoxing when people tell me to do something differently when it's DP that's misbehaving.

Nothing in your posts indicates that. Yes, you could be having a problem with bundles but there are many ways that bundles can cause phase anomalies—it depends on what you have going on.

What is 9.17?

[italodisco]

Mea culpa, it's 9.1, but build 71078 (hence my typing 9.17, sorry).

Running in 32 bit mostly but occasionally 64. System is El Capitan 10.11.5.

[italodisco]

find it flummoxing when people tell me to do something differently when it's DP that's misbehaving.

Nothing in your posts indicates that. Yes, you could be having a problem with bundles but there are many ways that bundles can cause phase anomalies—it depends on what you have going on.

What is 9.17?

I'm all ears (or eyes) if you'd like to let me know what might be happening with bundles that would cause phase anomalies. It's straight in to inputs 1-2 as interface is configued. Nothing inserted, no bussing, no feedback loops. Recorded with play-enable for the track disabled and audio patch-through off to make sure there wasn't something stupid I was missing. The only wildcard might be RME's TotalMix, but that isn't even in the record chain (by definition - it's like CueMix). Plus resolution occurs with no change to anything but DP, and that includes TotalMix.

And I've been doing this for years with no issues. Until now.

Basically, if you look at the "before" zapping all bundles and look at the newly-created bundle that doesn't have the error, they are totally identical insofar as what a user can see. So please do tell me what I might be missing...I'd rather have to admit doing something stupid than have DP acting so messed up. BTW this has been submitted to MOTU.

[HCMarkus]

Sounds like one for MOTU to consider. You could try a reinstall, or trash preferences and rebuild. Or update to 9.12...

I'm waiting for 9.17 to fix ALL our troubles!

[italodisco]

Now with screen-capture! This is replicable across different bundles (I use ADAT 5-6 here). Basically it seems like I have to delete all bundles and recreate for a new take or L/R is off.

Mike, would still love to hear your ideas on this since you seem to think it's something other than DP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iV_HFUSrBc

[italodisco]

Years later this is happening again - L/R are off to the point where it sounds like a slapback. All one stereo recording in on a previously-fine bundle.

Different computer (2015 MacBook Pro). New DP (11, have to check version at studio). New audio interface (Aurora Lynx (n) 24 i/o, one box via Thunderbolt). This time, it was presaged by the waveform either not displaying as I recorded (in the red take in the main Tracks or Sequence window, it would just be blank, as if you were recording nothing) or displaying erroneously (tiny waveform, random looking - shapes and peaks not in time with music and much quieter than the final, correct waveform). After stopping, it would blink, refresh and look OK.

MOTU never helped in 2016 so I'm assuming they won't in 2023. I even sent a video (still available above).

DOES ANYONE UNDERSTAND THIS OR HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN THIS? Driving me crazy. I've never had such a problem with any other DAW on my computers and I use a few. Thx.

[bayswater]

The video you referenced is not available — I get a message to that effect.

But the problem you describe is very odd. Never seen anything like this.

I’d guess MOTU didn’t deal with it earlier because they couldn’t repeat the it. I’d encourage you to post a tech link again if you can repeat the problem consistently.

[HCMarkus]

I haven't messed with this lately but, back when I was running DP on my Mac Pro 5,1, I, I discovered that if DP's buffer size is changed while an audio track is record enabled, timing issues will arise.

The solution was to toggle the record enable button after changing buffer size.

Not sure if this is the root of the OP's problem here, but offered as a potential source of timing anomalies. Any chance that one of the tracks in question was record enabled when the buffer size was changed?

Also wondering if the issue continues to arise if the computer and/or DP is re-booted. Over the years I've had many weird computer behaviors crop up that were resolved by a quick re-boot. With this experience in mind, I've never really understood why some folks prefer to never shut their studio computers down. Especially now, with Apple Silicon, when a re-boot takes practically no time at all.

[James Steele]

With this experience in mind, I've never really understood why some folks prefer to never shut their studio computers down. Especially now, with Apple Silicon, when a re-boot takes practically no time at all.

My Mac Studio boots insanely fast... as I'm sure yours does. It's ridiculous. Much of it has to be that read time off the internal SSD of roughly 5,000MB/s!

[italodisco]

Hi. Interesting tidbit that - but no, buffer size was not changed in this project unless I am having a memory lapse.

That's a crazy bug.

I've restarted a go-go...it is driving me crazy. Thanks for the advice and keep any feedback coming if anyone has other ideas. I'll probably write MOTU but they are really so bad at solving my issues (this goes back to the '90s) and that's why I often post here first. The tech support people are very nice (and it was awesome when you could still call and get someone each time on the phone) but I can't remember the last time they actually solved a problem. I feel like it's more like a kind of therapy, where you just complain and someone sympathetically listens and nods.

I really love 99% of DP, but it's so buggy for me I can't deal anymore. We should not have project crashing on edge edits in 2023. I have a small core of peers who use DP (it's really quite rare among most producers I know) and we are all dealing with bugs that happen WAY too often. I'm wrapping this project in April and going to try Logic.

Sorry for the rant!