Don't expect precision from DP (long)

[italodisco]

Yeah, I have a bad attitude in my subject title, but stick with me. First, here's a thread of mine from 2014:

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=58069&p=488515#p488515

It's regarding sloppy quantizing dependent on zoom. I recreated this error with a MOTU tech support person. Still happens. Almost 2017. (Not as long-lasting as the Control-Command-D being broken for "Duplicate Track," but close!)

Tonight I discovered a fun new bug relating to time, but involves nudging. I'm open to it being user error, so absolutely call me out if I'm doing something wrong. I'll be thrilled to be proven wrong on this, in fact. I'm using latest DP version on El Capitan, but I thought this was happening in prior versions and only really tested it tonight.

Background: I wanted to test the warping engine of Ableton to make sure (as Ableton claims) that if the tempo wasn't changed, the warping engine did nothing to the audio, even with warping on. So I output a warped file and used the original WAV to compare against. I dragged both into DP, to 1|1|000, then I inverted the phase of one. Ableton wasn't lying. They canceled each other out 100%. That answered that question!

Just for fun and to make sure I didn't have the volume down or something stupid, I highlighted one soundbite, and hit the right arrow once. Hit play; heard it all phasey. All good. Tapped the left arrow once to move it back to the original position. But wait; this time, I still heard it! Different phasing, but not nulled as it should have been. All snapping to grid is off, and nothing that should affect soundbite placement is checked in the "editing window" preference. In other words, if it functioned predictably, the soundbite seems like it should have just gone back to 1|1|000 and nulled, since I basically clicked it once to the right then once to the left. I mean, even if I was doing something wrong, with no snap-to-grid or other corrective preferences enabled, it's pretty non-intuitive if one arrow click to the right doesn't equal one arrow click to the left. I even used this method in the past as a lazy way to select soundbites from the tracks menu if I was zoomed out (you can highlight a region, click right and left, and boom, selected soundbite(s) within the region selection with nothing else in the region selected).

What I discovered was this: if you zoom ALL the way in, highlight a soundbite and click one right and once left, it works as intended. In other words, from (for example) 1|1|000, one click to the right and one to the left brings the soundbite back to the same place. This works for the next 7 stages of zooming out horizontally, using the little + button in the lower right-hand side, as proven by these two files nulling. But at stage 8 level zoom - meaning 8 + button clicks out from the most zoomed in - it breaks. You tap a soundbite right once, then it takes TWO left clicks to get it back. Even less predictably, from the next level of zoom out and onwards, you cannot get it to null again without zooming in and/or manually dragging it back to zero.

I do this for a living and can't have things phasing when I'm working on a mix under deadline and moving soundbites around. I don't think it should work this way under any conditions. It's just like the weirdness of quantizing not exactly working at certain levels of zoom.

Been using DP for 25 years. Please tell me I'm doing something wrong. About to jump ship and move to a DAW that stays sample-accurate when you use it, you know, like a DAW.

TL;DR: Nudging soundbites doesn't work like it should and can phuck up your phase.

[stubbsonic]

You cleared it up at the end, that you are not talking about quantizing, but are talking about some unpredictable bad behavior from the nudge amounts. DP should nudge by the correct amount regardless of zoom level.

I can confirm that this bug also happens for me, but it happens at ALL zoom levels. I.e., the right arrow nudge amount is greater (by a small amount) than the left arrow nudge amount.

At first, I wondered if it was related to some tempo info, so nudging it by some fraction of a beat could cause some problems if the tempo was not the same at the new location, but there isn't any tempo change in the sequence that I tested.

[italodisco]

I see you're using DP8. I wonder if that changes the bug. I admit I haven't tried the test on loads of different soundbites. The soundbites I used were imported.

I guess since the quantize bug linked to early in my reply happens on all types of soundbites - basically any audio, be it recorded, imported, rendered - I didn't even bother trying different types of audio with this bug. I figured, like the quantize bug, it would behave just as badly across all different types of audio.

I guess I'll do more testing but at this point I think the time's better spent learning Ableton and finding a new DAW to mix in. If anyone else wants to contribute to this testing, I'd be grateful. I guess it would be nice if someone from MOTU weighed in.

[RROY]

Just tested this "nudge" issue on Mountain Lion with DP 9.12 and it is happening on my system. That makes 2 known accuracy issues, including external MIDI timing. I guess you have to use "move to original time stamp" to get back to where you started from. You shouldn't have to use a work around for this.

[stubbsonic]

I'll go put together a bug report over on that thread.

[Robert Randolph]

I've reported this to Motu.

[mikehalloran]

Let's focus on what you are trying to accomplish and see if there's a better tool.

In DP 8, MOTU introduced Precision Time Delay to align your samples. That's why it's there. Here's a short video.
https://vimeo.com/72490248

Setting Nudge preferences has changed with each version which is a bit frustrating. To have it not respond equally in both directions is not good but has been like that a long time. Not really an issue for me.

I find Eventide's Precision Time Align a little easier than DP's Precision Time Delay and grabbed it when it first became available separately at a special bargain. It's now $99 but is included in their bundles.
https://www.eventideaudio.com/products/ ... time-align

Here's a good video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6VIR0SsV1A

Even if Nudge worked perfectly, either time align tool is far more precise.

[stubbsonic]

Dumb question, but where is the nudge preference set? I searched the manual and it described changing it, but I didn't understand how to access the setting window (i.e., what menu from what context).

[Robert Randolph]

Let's focus on what you are trying to accomplish and see if there's a better tool.

In DP 8, MOTU introduced Precision Time Delay to align your samples. That's why it's there. Here's a short video.
https://vimeo.com/72490248

Setting Nudge preferences has changed with each version which is a bit frustrating. To have it not respond equally in both directions is not good but has been like that a long time. Not really an issue for me.

I find Eventide's Precision Time Align a little easier than DP's Precision Time Delay and grabbed it when it first became available separately at a special bargain. It's now $99 but is included in their bundles.
https://www.eventideaudio.com/products/ ... time-align

Here's a good video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6VIR0SsV1A

Even if Nudge worked perfectly, either time align tool is far more precise.

Oh man, I didn't even know about the precision delay in DP. Well, I knew about it, but I didn't realize the functionality.

What an exceptionally useful tool for me! Thank you for mentioning that.

[cuttime]

Dumb question, but where is the nudge preference set? I searched the manual and it described changing it, but I didn't understand how to access the setting window (i.e., what menu from what context).

It's in the Snap edit info window. I keep Grid Info on my Information bars.

Sequence editor in my config, click the G, or the 90º arrow with the drop down:

I'm wondering if the resolution has something to do with this behavior, but I haven't had time to try it out.

[cuttime]

OR: Studio>Snap Information

[stubbsonic]

CORRECTION: Switch the Nudge mode to either REAL TIME, FRAMES, and SAMPLES. Those units work correctly on my rig. The other settings have the right nudge further than left.

Another little bug is that you can't type values into that Snap Information window. Only dragging is permitted.

[HCMarkus]

Switching the Nudge amount to Ticks fixes it. The only choices that seem to work correctly are REAL TIME, FRAMES, and SAMPLES.

The other settings have the right nudge further than left.

Another little bug is that you can't type values into that Snap Information window. Only dragging is permitted.

Thanks for that Stubbs... I always have set to real time, so I am happy.

[stubbsonic]

I corrected my post. I had initially thought that TICKS worked, but I wasn't zoomed in enough to see that it doesn't work right.

[Shooshie]

Let's focus on what you are trying to accomplish and see if there's a better tool.

In DP 8, MOTU introduced Precision Time Delay to align your samples. That's why it's there. Here's a short video.
https://vimeo.com/72490248

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!
I had not even looked at that plugin. I wanted to, but just didn't get around to a learning situation where I could try it and figure it out. This explained it perfectly. I can definitely use that in a LOT of my mixes.

Shoosh