Don't expect precision from DP (long)

[italodisco]

mikehalloran wrote:
Let's focus on what you are trying to accomplish and see if there's a better tool.

Mike, thanks if this was just trying to be helpful. I realize my post was long so maybe it's not clear: the phase test was merely a method to investigate a problem. I know how to test and modify phase relationships using a variety of tools, so we're good there.

"What I'm trying to accomplish" is to have the damn DAW work properly. If I nudge something x to the right, x should remain x when I nudge to the left - and not become y (or some unrelated non-constant). I didn't realize it was a longtime bug, because I use nudge a lot and didn't notice this behavior until upgrading to 9.

The quantize bug is a major problem as well. Having to quantize something twice or more at different zoom resolutions is f*cking insane. That's a serious bug and no plug-in or workaround should be required to do this! I only started seeing this in 8, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist before.

I want DP to quantize properly and nudge predictably. Otherwise very basic editing moves by the user can unintentionally undermine workflow. That is quite scary and why I hope MOTU (I've submitted a report) can either tell me it's user error or fix it. The fact that it only becomes obvious as fairly zoomed-in level makes it even worse, because it's easy for the user to miss.

[Robert Randolph]

So I've been trying the precision delay for 2 days now, and I have to say

It never auto-aligns to the same value, no matter what material I give it. Drums, bass, guitars, strings, brass etc..

I'd estimate that 75% of the time it makes problems worse unless it's a very steady sustained section (which isn't always available to use).

The #1 use that I'd have for it is aligning drum overheads and top/bottom mics on drums. It's totally useless for this in my use so far. Any heavily transient material makes things go crazy. +/- 30ms and some seriously nutty results. I even tried looping a small section of a drum hit so it sounds like a sustained signal. No dice.

Another weird side-effect is that when using it, my project would randomly play various tracks out of sync. It didn't matter if they had precision delay on them or not. Sometimes stopping and re-playing fixes it, sometimes a different random track would be out of sync. I've seen this a few times in the past, but I never nailed down a cause of any sort.

Yet another weird side-effect is that the playback would start continuing past when I hit stop. The more I used precision delay, the worse it became. It also affects memory loops too. My loops would consistently start playing back at the wrong times and extending way past the memory marker.

Oh well. I got all excited too.

On the positive side, I did find these two products to try that are similar. Let's see how they work out.
https://www.soundradix.com/products/auto-align/
https://www.meldaproduction.com/MAutoAlign

[terrybritton]

So I've been trying the precision delay for 2 days now, and I have to say

It never auto-aligns to the same value, no matter what material I give it. Drums, bass, guitars, strings, brass etc..

I'd estimate that 75% of the time it makes problems worse unless it's a very steady sustained section (which isn't always available to use).

The #1 use that I'd have for it is aligning drum overheads and top/bottom mics on drums. It's totally useless for this in my use so far. Any heavily transient material makes things go crazy. +/- 30ms and some seriously nutty results. I even tried looping a small section of a drum hit so it sounds like a sustained signal. No dice.

Robert,

So you are saying that it TOTALLY does not do as advertised in this video???

https://vimeo.com/72490248

That is a real shame.

Terry

P.S. Here is another video from a NAMM show where they espouse the glories of the Precision Delay plugin at 4:44

[Robert Randolph]

So I've been trying the precision delay for 2 days now, and I have to say

It never auto-aligns to the same value, no matter what material I give it. Drums, bass, guitars, strings, brass etc..

I'd estimate that 75% of the time it makes problems worse unless it's a very steady sustained section (which isn't always available to use).

The #1 use that I'd have for it is aligning drum overheads and top/bottom mics on drums. It's totally useless for this in my use so far. Any heavily transient material makes things go crazy. +/- 30ms and some seriously nutty results. I even tried looping a small section of a drum hit so it sounds like a sustained signal. No dice.

Robert,

So you are saying that it TOTALLY does not do as advertised in this video???

https://vimeo.com/72490248

That is a real shame.

Terry

P.S. Here is another video from a NAMM show where they espouse the glories of the Precision Delay plugin at 4:44

I've got it to "work" very occasionally. With a sustained horn part for instance, it works fairly well. With a straight 8ths strummed guitar part it sometimes works ok. The issue is that if you hit 'align' again, it may take your -1.5ms shift and turn it in to a +2.05ms shift. Yes that theoretically can put something in to phase coherence if it has a lot of non-decaying signal or transients, but that's not often the case nor does it inspire much confidence in the result. Quite often in my experience, you just have to hit 'align' repeatedly till you get a result that sounds OK except for the aforementioned ideal circumstances.

For manually adjusting things it works... except the project still starts to get really weird. Desyncing happens, overshoots on memory markers/loops. These issues persist in the project even if you remove the precision delay plug-in. I can make this happen reliably here, and I suppose I should put together a how-to for the issue file a techlink about it.

For drum parts, I've not been able to get it to work reliably at all. Hitting align randomly gives results between -30 and +30. I've not even seen it randomly get it right to my knowledge yet. Unfortunately this is the scenario where I'd find the plugin most useful. I certainly can understand if it doesn't work for this operation, and that's ok... if it worked reliably otherwise.

Honestly, I'd probably still try to use it for stuff like strummed guitar, brass, woodwinds or time-aligning a large concert hall array. You can get something resembling results with it on the right material. The issue still remains that it appears to cause some really weird desync issues

All of this has been compounded in my mind by trying Auto-Align by Sound Radix tonight. Now that plug-in definitely works. Even on drum parts. It doesn't cause any desync issues in DP either. Will I pay $150 for it though? Meh... probably not. I've been shifting things manually for almost 2 decades.

Anyway, don't take my word for it. Anyone with DP8 has the plug-in. Try it for yourself and see. Maybe I've just screwed something up somehow and it's actually awesome. I'd be quite happy if that was actually the case... then I could use the plug-in

Edit: 10/14/16 - The Precision Delay problems are partially related to a large "Prime Milliseconds" value. If anyone is trying this themselves, play with that setting perhaps?

[csavetman]

On the positive side, I did find these two products to try that are similar. Let's see how they work out.
https://www.soundradix.com/products/auto-align/
https://www.meldaproduction.com/MAutoAlign

Robert-

I can tell you from my experience, that Sound Radix Auto-Align works very well. Gives me consistent readings, even when I run it several times to double or triple check.
Like you, I've had mixed results with Precision Delay, giving me different results.

Carlos

[italodisco]

Can you guys please make the plug-in stuff a separate thread? I think these bugs are important enough to warrant keeping this thread on-topic...and anyway, no plug-in is a solution for the current iteration of DP not working correctly on the most basic level (AFAIK, and confirmed by others).

No offense meant, just want this to be an easy read for MOTU, who I've pointed to this thread in a tech-note. And if you can replicate the error, please make noise in this thread.

[Robert Randolph]

Can someone check and see if the behaviour of the topic happens in 9.00 or 9.01?

I just noticed a fix in the readme for 9.02:

Fixed an issue where nudging by milliseconds the same amount in either direction might be off by a few samples from the initial position.

So perhaps either the whole issue was not fully fixed, or that "fix" broke something else.

[italodisco]

Good eye! Will try later on an earlier version (although I also don't feel like doing their beta testing for them until I'm given the software for free.)

And wow @ MOTU using the phrase "a few" when discussing sample accuracy. Just keepin' it casual. A few samples.

[Robert Randolph]

although I also don't feel like doing their beta testing for them until I'm given the software for free.

As an aside, I think about this sometimes. It's a bit of a catch-22.

Yes it is annoying when bugs happen and you, the paying user, has to track down the bug and do footwork to help get it fixed.

On the other hand though, I paid for the software. I want the thing to work. The software has easily paid for itself many times over for me, so at this point I feel like any lost time/effort/money in tracking down bugs is almost a sort of income tax .

This particular issue though... it's just plain annoying. I don't find it to be particularly consequential for me since I manually shift things around and sanity-ear-check them. However it does erode some trust in the software. It also once again makes me question why there's no absolute-grid in DP. The fact that we have to rely on quantize for something that's done so frequently in modern audio software is a bit silly.

[Shooshie]

Maybe that's why we don't have a grid. MOTU has pushed the limits of space-time, causing a warp around space in the time direction, such that any given distance is x nudges over and 1.4x nudges back.

Shooshie

[mikehalloran]

Can you guys please make the plug-in stuff a separate thread? I think these bugs are important enough to warrant keeping this thread on-topic...and anyway, no plug-in is a solution for the current iteration of DP not working correctly on the most basic level (AFAIK, and confirmed by others).

No offense meant, just want this to be an easy read for MOTU, who I've pointed to this thread in a tech-note. And if you can replicate the error, please make noise in this thread.

Since this is a user run board and not affiliated with MOTU, good luck with that.

[Robert Randolph]

As an update, I've submitted a video of this bug in action to Motu and clarified some of the requirements and unexpected behaviour. Hopefully that helps them reproduce and fix it.

[italodisco]

Hey Robert, thanks. Andrew @ MOTU reported that he got another MOTUnation user's submission of video - I assume that's you - and said to watch for updates. I appreciate the backup on this, thanks again.

If anyone can replicate and submit the quantize bug in a video, that would be great. I was asked, and I will try, but I have miserable internet at the studio. Maybe I'll try to do a phone video and send it later when I have a better connection.

Mike, well gee, there are plenty of user-run boards where manufacturers weigh in. I know for certain they are viewing this thread since I've provided links and they've referenced the board, Robert's video and those links in my open TechNote.

Many synth and interface manufacturers chime in nonstop on user boards - for example, the MuffWiggler board. Although most are admittedly smaller (and more involved with their user base) than MOTU, some are big and sold through the same channels (Sweetwater, et al.) So I don't think it's a weird expectation in this era of connection for MOTU to have a user liaison to update us. It might even be a smart move on MOTU's part. Users appreciate communication and usually publicly commend companies with great tech support, which can attract new customers.

[Robert Randolph]

Hey Robert, thanks. Andrew @ MOTU reported that he got another MOTUnation user's submission of video - I assume that's you - and said to watch for updates. I appreciate the backup on this, thanks again.

If anyone can replicate and submit the quantize bug in a video, that would be great. I was asked, and I will try, but I have miserable internet at the studio. Maybe I'll try to do a phone video and send it later when I have a better connection.

Mike, well gee, there are plenty of user-run boards where manufacturers weigh in. I know for certain they are viewing this thread since I've provided links and they've referenced the board, Robert's video and those links in my open TechNote.

Many synth and interface manufacturers chime in nonstop on user boards - for example, the MuffWiggler board. Although most are admittedly smaller (and more involved with their user base) than MOTU, some are big and sold through the same channels (Sweetwater, et al.) So I don't think it's a weird expectation in this era of connection for MOTU to have a user liaison to update us. It might even be a smart move on MOTU's part. Users appreciate communication and usually publicly commend companies with great tech support, which can attract new customers.

Andrew said that he was able to replicate the bug now, and he's been great to deal with in getting this reported and reproduced.

[mikehalloran]

Mike, well gee, there are plenty of user-run boards where manufacturers weigh in.

Yes but as James and others have repeatedly posted over the years, this is not one of them.

MOTU engineers do post from time to time—we are always happy when they do. It can never be assumed that they will read these posts or comment.

I'm just the messenger.