Mixes I did last year are broken in 9.1 [SOLVED]

[Killahurts]

Last summer I mixed a concert, each of the 18 songs in a separate chunk. Each song has about about 30 tracks, some mono, some stereo. FWIW, each song has a reference movie it's synced to. The mixes were mostly complete, but the video producer had to abandon the project, so I shelved it for a time.

When I loaded the project into 9.1 today and hit play, the mix was whacky, on every song/chunk. The instruments and vocals were all there, but they were not at all the way I left them (guitar too loud, can barely hear the vocal, but all of its echo and reverb is there, etc.)

I knew I didn't leave that project that way because I have reference mixes. I got the distinct impression that plugins might be responsible, because of the symptoms. I don't know which ones per se, but I used a lot of Slate VMR and Soundtoys in that project.

So I reinstalled 9.02 (I didn't think to rename it before I installed 9.1). Pulled it up, and all was well again, sounds the way it should.

Serious drag for me, because I was really digging the new audio and VI performance enhancements in 9.1. I suppose I could use both versions of DP, just using 9.1 for the new stuff.. but that might be more trouble than it's worth. Guess I gotta go back.

I had some other (much older) projects that would load and immediately crash DP 9.1, maybe I'll try these as well with 9.02 and report back..

EDIT: It was the Slate Virtual Mix Rack that was the problem. Toggling bypass on the plugin fixes it. I'm on the newest VMR, version 1.6.3.1

I do not Believe DP 9.1 (in and of itself) is responsible for this issue.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Frame rate and other settings are the same? Sample rates, etc.?

[Phil O]

I've been asking this question so much, people are going to ask me to put it in my sig.
Do you have any plug-ins placed post fader in the project? If you do it will most likely cause all sorts of audio problems on playback. This has been confirmed by MOTU as a problem and should be fixed in the next release.
Also there are some plug-in problems. look here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=62204

Phil

[Killahurts]

I've been asking this question so much, people are going to ask me to put it in my sig.
Do you have any plug-ins placed post fader in the project? If you do it will most likely cause all sorts of audio problems on playback. This has been confirmed by MOTU as a problem and should be fixed in the next release.
Also there are some plug-in problems. look here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=62204

Phil

Hey Phil, I know about this, but to be honest, I don't even know how to set a plugin to post fader, I just don't have need of it.. still, the two problems could be related. It seems like the audio going into the plugs isn't mixed with the plugs output correctly, like the signal flow is not right. Best example is, Slate Mix Rack in insert 1, followed by an Echo on insert 2. The echo is set to 25 %, but it sounds like 100% wet. In addition, the entire signal of the track is low, like the Slate plug is not outputting the same volume as it did. Those are just an example though. It appears to be almost random. At first I thought it was only on tracks with automation data, but it turned out not to be the case.

Remember, going back to 9.02 fixes it perfectly. This is a really complex issue, and I don't have time to troubleshoot it properly (where to begin?), but I'm wondering if the post fader insert problem is a little deeper than we thought.

[Killahurts]

I wonder if it has to do with the new Pre Gen thing? I didn't even think to check it with all the plugins set to "real time". Can we even do that anymore with 9.1?

[Timeline]

I'm the guy he referenced on the plug in find. Apparently when a mix is loaded into 9.1 the Analog Flanger on any track insert will be wonkey. Also found MIDI timing errors on much older projects for BFD which somehow get delayed a beat. I reported that one to MOTU as well with a link to the tune, 1.75GB if interested. These all play fine in 8. Did not try 9.0

[James Steele]

Also found MIDI timing errors on much older projects for BFD which somehow get delayed a beat. I reported that one to MOTU as well with a link to the tune, 1.75GB if interested. These all play fine in 8. Did not try 9.0

Any chance you have some sort of effect placed after BFD on insert immediately after the VI on its channel strip? Are that effect/effects set to run in realtime? If you remove effects placed on the insert right after BFD do you still get timing errors?

By the way, if I was betting I'd say it should be fine in DP 9.02.

[Timeline]

(fine in .2) It might be.

No, everything in real time, it's happening on quite a few tracks related to MIDI so not sure whats up with there. I could try and just select a clean mix without any plugs to test it I suppose . This is only happening on one project. I have other tracks with MIDI and the same treatment plugs etc. that are fine.

The fact that 8 plays it perfectly is curious thinking if it was somehow corrupted you would think a chunk reload into a DP9.1 template would fix it but it doesn't. Regards, GB

P.S. James. 9.1 sounds great. I have chosen to remix everything for this improved tone.

[Killahurts]

P.S. James. 9.1 sounds great. I have chosen to remix everything for this improved tone.

I have to admit, I noticed this too.. and I didn't expect it to sound different, it was just noticeable. It's like everything is more, I dunno, "in sync"? Tracks timing is tighter?

[Killahurts]

Well, I may mark this problem as "solved". Turns out it is the Slate Virtual Mix Rack that is causing the problems. But not all of them, only the ones that contained mono to stereo instances. Also, I'm using the Slate Virtual Console on each channel, first thing in the VMR (those are all "tied" together, and to the receiving plugin on the master buss, where they can all be controlled simultaneously from just one plugin, which makes it a suspect here).

Simply toggling the bypass on and off for the VMR plugin (per channel), fixes it. While I have the plugin open, before I toggle the bypass, the level indicators on the Slate plugs show nothing. Once I toggle, the level jumps up substantially and the meters can be seen moving. Bypassing any of the Slate individual plugins within the VMR, has no effect.. only the main bypass fixes it.

[James Steele]

P.S. James. 9.1 sounds great. I have chosen to remix everything for this improved tone.

I have to admit, I noticed this too.. and I didn't expect it to sound different, it was just noticeable. It's like everything is more, I dunno, "in sync"? Tracks timing is tighter?

Are you guys serious or is there some "chain yanking" going on?

[Killahurts]

P.S. James. 9.1 sounds great. I have chosen to remix everything for this improved tone.

I have to admit, I noticed this too.. and I didn't expect it to sound different, it was just noticeable. It's like everything is more, I dunno, "in sync"? Tracks timing is tighter?

Are you guys serious or is there some "chain yanking" going on?

See, that's why I was reluctant to say anything, until Timeline said something and I got confident.

I never discount the possibility that I'm imagining things. But I unexpectedly noticed a difference in sound between the two, while I was experimenting back and forth with the same projects between them (not the problem projects above). I've been working on dramatic trailer music lately with a lot of VIs and MIDI tracks. The bigger the project, the bigger the difference to my ears.. that's why I think it must have something to do with superior timing and syncing of tracks/VIs/V-racks. There is more expanse to the sound field, it's "cleaner". I don't think it's the panning laws or bit depth formats at play here.. I think it's the tightly synced presentation that I'm hearing.

Guys, please don't flame me with digital audio realities/statistics, I'm too old and don't have the patience. I only care about the art anymore. But as someone who has worked with digital audio for 25 years, and multi-track for 40, I can tell you that sometimes you don't really know how out of sync your tracks are, until you hear them in sync.

[James Steele]

Please don't take my comment as me not believing you. There could be something to it. I'm always hesitant to mention hearing differences like that because it can be so tricky. Maybe the new pregen optimizing is reducing some of the load overall? Dunno. I just installed 9.1 on my MacBook backing tracks machine and I am noticing a bit faster chunk load times and it's running fairly well on a 6 year old MacBook.

[Killahurts]

Please don't take my comment as me not believing you. There could be something to it. I'm always hesitant to mention hearing differences like that because it can be so tricky.

Exactly. I've fallen into the trap before, of having to defend my opinion about subtle differences in the sound of a DAW, knowing that I could be wrong.. the subconscious could just be making stuff up.

When I'm playing a piano VI, does it really sound better in the new software, or is there far less latency when playing, and so the mind interprets it as sounding better? That kind of thing..

[buzzsmith]

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but since apparent improvements in audio quality was mentioned...

Would I notice a big difference if I replaced my 24 I/O with some other A-D converter?

Mine is my primary audio in and audio out to DP.

Just curious and thanks!

Buzzy


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