Pre-Gen MIDI Controller Bug in DP 9.1

[cuttime]

Can someone tell me how to turn pre-gen off? I am using the mini menu in the plug window. Does the window have to be closed, too? Or both?

[Shooshie]

Well it's how I record all my keyboard parts - from beginning to end, one shot. If I do it another
way, I lose the feel.

I learned this from my mentor, known here on this forum as Waxman. It's about groove and vibe.
Not bar lines, controllers, or punching in and out.

So if you want to call me old-fashioned or out-of-touch, or even amusing, that's alright with me.

Why, heck, pahdner, alls we really needs is a 15" reel to reel. That's keepin' it reel, you knows?

I spent the first half of my life as a concert artist performing some of the most difficult music known to musicians. After years of striving for note-perfect recordings in one-shot settings, I was greatly relieved to learn that the greatest musicians on earth spliced-in their mistakes, or even their preferences of one take one another. It saves enormous amounts of time and effort, and nobody likes playing a 30 minute concerto 10 times in one sitting. DP, Pro Tools, Otari, SSL, Studer, Tascam, Neve, Trident, and even Logic Studio have all devoted countless millions in research and development toward making that convenience an utter state of the art. No need to be old school about it until it fails. Recording IS an art form, and we do use these tools as they were intended to be used.

Playing a linear take, perfectly, is always an option, and it has been since the beginning of music. Few can do it every time, and frankly, the more interesting players take risks that often leave some collateral damage in the form of a klinker or two. It's for those exciting performances by risk takers that we developed all this stuff. Well, that and the pop factories where laying out a hit is like making a sandwich.

To imply that real musicians only do it in one take or else they lose their feel is a bit of puffery that does not jibe with reality. I have nothing but respect for your musicianship and Waxman's experience in the studio, not to mention our many other fine colleagues here, but comments like that are just irritating. Of course, irritating comments have been standard fare among competitive musicians since the dawn of time, so I guess it really is old school! Carry on.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Can someone tell me how to turn pre-gen off? I am using the mini menu in the plug window. Does the window have to be closed, too? Or both?

In 9.1 you can leave the window open. You just choose the menu item that says "run open instances of this plugin in real time." If it's checked, Pre-Gen is off as long as the window is open. You can't turn pre-gen off otherwise. (at least, as far as I know)

Shooshie

[daniel.sneed]

AFAIK, VIs and plugins seating in a V-rack, or in an aux track, will be processed real-time in DP9.1.

[waxman]

There IS a workaround...old-school of course.

Simply record your part from beginning to end, don't punch in, don't stop recording and then start
again. Pretend you're playing live and have to get the part right. If this is truly a bug MOTU will get to it.

Just sayin'...

So essentially, tape. Yes, I can do that with guitar and maybe some other instruments, and did it for years, but am not a good enough keyboard player, alas.

But kidding aside, there is much to be said for the forge ahead technique, just in terms of, as you say "feel," and such. It's been so long since I've cut live to tape like that, I really should give it a try more often.

Best,
Babz

Babz thanks for chasing down that bug and getting it to the mother ship. Thanks Dave... love you too. Sorry I'm kind of hijacking this thread from MIDI controllers but I am thankful for the thread since it explains why I can't get consistent hihat performances from eDrums.

I like what Babz brings up about TAPE... So here goes the hijack...
My take on the FORGE AHEAD METHOD...

Hopefully the only holdovers from my tape years are positive. I would never want to go back to tape. In my way of working for a long time the pendulum swung way, way, way to far into DAW land. The final music product was less musical then I wanted and I did not quite understand why. I had a kind of Babz epiphany (see quote) and started reenlisting the techniques recording to tape forced me to use.

So now I resist the desire to get 4 or 5 notes perfect until much later in a songs development. I prefer the singer sing through 10 times if needed then to stop and "fix" a line on take 2. Some thing happens to singers when it's performance time. When a singer is able to feel the urgency it forces them into REAL TIME which translates to magic. I love later comping vocals from complete performances but much later in the process.

As producers and engineers we make music but when we make songs like movies in short scenes it changes the music. I'm not saying it's not cool to record in pieces. Songs like "Bang Bang" are genius works of art and when paired with video it is an awesome experience. The storyline and lyrics definitely slams it home (not to mention the dancing and the banging booty.) moving on...

Speaking of imagery I like to do a mental assessment of the artist's final target. If it's a BAND then capturing the vibe of what at least sounds like a complete performances is crucial imo. I've been there when a guitar player (you all know his name) spent all day on a 6 note phrase. That is not my idea of fun. Especially when I'm pushing the rewind and rec buttons. (again stay on point dude)

When I produce especially young rookie bands my system looks like this... I get an arrangement with something like a loop pedal, or guide chords on beat 1. Unless a band is so well rehearsed and tight the magic is obvious I prefer edrums triggering BFD3 for drums in this day and age. Then we cut the song with everyone that want's to play in real time. But it's at least the drummer and singer. Next I try to fill it in asap with the groove of the other players in complete takes. I don't care if there is a clam I can always fix it LATER. And if we don't like the cut like Bruce Swedien said to get Q and MJ to stop yapping "who cares we can always erase it." (Sorry side bar)

Next I have the drummer go back and do 3 or four complete takes or as many until they feel they nailed it. Then the singer as many takes as needed until they feel they nailed it. The goal is to do all this in a 3 hour session. Then I Shooshie the band out of the studio to lunch whatever and ALONE I make a quick work mix of the song with the original work vocal cut in real time. The mix hits all their iPhones in a half hour or so and it's like a reward for all the hard work.

When the band shows up for the next session be it that day or the next they know what they want to FIX. They've listened to it a gazzilion time. Most of the time the vibe is great with some minimal fixes because they don't overthink it. It's still the in the genesis of the creation process. Next we make a written hit list of the fixes (love the new notes feature in DP) and then move on to ANOTHER SONG using the same process.

This process came to me from remembering how we used tape. We cut basics, then made a work mix, then reviewed it while it was fresh. Then went to cutting the next song. Because the drums were set up, the amps were set up, the machine was biased etc. etc. The sessions ideally went 10am to 1pm. Then 3 to 6-7pm. That was how we cut records. Basics, then o'dubs, sweetening, then MIX... You would stay on basics for weeks for maybe 15 songs. Why? Because you had a gazzilion TT patch cables that took hours to get right so no way were you gonna disturb that rats nest. The drums in perfect tune. The amps mic'd perfect. You did not want to change anything. So having limits forced some things that just may be good. Now we have no limits and I like it better. But no limits can create a lot of rabbit tracking. So there you have it.

Babz I hope you find the tape memories you are looking for and it impacts your process.

Finally...
I love the brain power on Motunation... Yes TDH... There is definitely a lot of math going on under the hood in DP 9.1 and maybe more going on in Shooshi's dome along with others who were blessed with big brains. M.nation is an incredible learning environment.

For any of those who ski'd remember the saying, "if your not falling your not learning." So hug a bug sometimes it's your friend. It's a sign for where we need learning.

[Robert Randolph]

Well it's how I record all my keyboard parts - from beginning to end, one shot. If I do it another
way, I lose the feel.

I learned this from my mentor, known here on this forum as Waxman. It's about groove and vibe.
Not bar lines, controllers, or punching in and out.

So if you want to call me old-fashioned or out-of-touch, or even amusing, that's alright with me.

Why, heck, pahdner, alls we really needs is a 15" reel to reel. That's keepin' it reel, you knows?

I spent the first half of my life as a concert artist performing some of the most difficult music known to musicians. After years of striving for note-perfect recordings in one-shot settings, I was greatly relieved to learn that the greatest musicians on earth spliced-in their mistakes, or even their preferences of one take one another. It saves enormous amounts of time and effort, and nobody likes playing a 30 minute concerto 10 times in one sitting. DP, Pro Tools, Otari, SSL, Studer, Tascam, Neve, Trident, and even Logic Studio have all devoted countless millions in research and development toward making that convenience an utter state of the art. No need to be old school about it until it fails. Recording IS an art form, and we do use these tools as they were intended to be used.

Playing a linear take, perfectly, is always an option, and it has been since the beginning of music. Few can do it every time, and frankly, the more interesting players take risks that often leave some collateral damage in the form of a klinker or two. It's for those exciting performances by risk takers that we developed all this stuff. Well, that and the pop factories where laying out a hit is like making a sandwich.

To imply that real musicians only do it in one take or else they lose their feel is a bit of puffery that does not jibe with reality. I have nothing but respect for your musicianship and Waxman's experience in the studio, not to mention our many other fine colleagues here, but comments like that are just irritating. Of course, irritating comments have been standard fare among competitive musicians since the dawn of time, so I guess it really is old school! Carry on.

Shooshie

I did not expect you to say this, but thank you for doing so. I am getting really annoyed by this strange undertone that's appearing in some forum posts.

[David Polich]

Well it's how I record all my keyboard parts - from beginning to end, one shot. If I do it another
way, I lose the feel.

I learned this from my mentor, known here on this forum as Waxman. It's about groove and vibe.
Not bar lines, controllers, or punching in and out.

So if you want to call me old-fashioned or out-of-touch, or even amusing, that's alright with me.

To imply that real musicians only do it in one take or else they lose their feel is a bit of puffery that does not jibe with reality. I have nothing but respect for your musicianship and Waxman's experience in the studio, not to mention our many other fine colleagues here, but comments like that are just irritating. Of course, irritating comments have been standard fare among competitive musicians since the dawn of time, so I guess it really is old school! Carry on.

Shooshie

Shoosh, I never said "perfect take". There is no such thing. All I care about is whether it is musical.
Including mistakes. Just get the part so that it's working.

Plenty of great records include mistakes. Even Beatle records. I could point out a few records that are ultra-cool precisely because of the mistakes. Cheap Trick's first album is one of them. Every Led Zeppelin album...First four Yes albums...first Chicago album...I could go on.

Make one mistake, it's a mistake. Repeat the same mistake, it's jazz. You know the old saying..

[cuttime]

...

[Shooshie]

Make one mistake, it's a mistake. Repeat the same mistake, it's jazz. You know the old saying..

True, true.

I used to be a pole vaulter and high jumper. My brother actually held the world record at the former for many years, but I quit and joined the band to avoid comparisons between us. We learned early to set the bar high. If you make it, it's a new record. If you don't, you failed, but you failed at an attempted record. People watching get excited either way! Best of all, when you set the bar high, the adrenaline kicks in and more often you DO make it.

In music, mistakes are subjective. Arthur Rubinstein and Vladimir Horowitz both made mistakes when they played, and Horowitz's mistakes were sometimes blatant. But you didn't think of them as failing; they went for the hard stuff and let their emotions rule. There's often fallout from that. Then again, when they nailed it, it was sheer genius. Same principle.

So, if you get close, in music you can always splice-in those troubled spots. A couple full takes is usually enough material to cover everything.

[waxman]

Glad to see you moved this Shooshie. I remember when you guys started this area because the trolls were getting in the way of productivity and the spirit of Mnation. Instead of solution it was one negative opinion after another. I think its to bad when a new version like 9.1 comes out with some ground breaking features. For me and others it has been amazing. When we celebrate the cool new features there seems to be a need by certain dudes to be the self appointed critics. I am fine with the bug finding but the negative editorializing is a drag and completely uncalled for.

Motu and many companies spend a lot of bucks to get products to market. Then to have the self anointed troll just tear down the product like it's crap is disheartening for me. I make my living from this program. I have used PT, Logic, Studio One for complete projects at the insistence of clients. Frankly I prefer DP for good reason. It's elegant and works better then the rest for how I work. When that opinion is voiced the wing nuts come out of the jar and for some reason are compelled to write a rebuttal.

Sadly these people just hurt the DP user base and it becomes polarizing. New users or those thinking of using DP run for the hills and I don't blame them. The negative comments are uncalled for. Interestingly they often come from people I've seen on other forums who trash DP and hail the virtues of the DAW they are using. Then they come to Mnation and pose as users. But the underlying message of their posts is always to tear down DP. I am tempted to out them. I'm glad I held off this time but I was getting cloase. Thanks again for moving this thread as it became a home for negative Nancy's instead of a helpful thread to find a solutions.

[David Polich]

Glad to see you moved this Shooshie. I remember when you guys started this area because the trolls were getting in the way of productivity and the spirit of Mnation. Instead of solution is was one negative opinion after another. I think its to bad when a new version like 9.1 comes out with some ground breaking features. For me and others it has been amazing. When we celebrate the cool new features there seems to be a need by certain dudes to be the self appointed critics. I am fine with the bug finding but the negative editorializing is a drag and completely uncalled for.

Motu and many companies spend a lot of bucks to get products to market. Then to have the self anointed troll just tear down the product like it's crap is disheartening for me. I make my living from this program. I have used PT, Logic, Studio One for complete projects at the insistence of clients. Frankly I prefer DP for good reason. It's elegant and works better then the rest for how I work. When that opinion is voiced the wing nuts come out of the jar and for some reason are compelled to write a rebuttal.

Sadly these people just hurt the DP user base and it becomes polarizing. New users or those thinking of using DP run for the hills and I don't blame them. The negative comments are uncalled for. Interestingly they often come from people I've seen on other forums who trash DP and hail the virtues of the DAW they are using. Then they come to Mnation and pose as users. But the underlying message of their posts is always to tear down DP. I am tempted to out them. I'm glad I held off this time but I was getting cloase. Thanks again for moving this thread as it became a home for negative Nancy's instead of a helpful thread to find a solutions.

Likin' this, Waxman. Truth.

[ACMMD]

I downloaded 9.1 this morning and fired it up to record a piano track with Ivory. Ran into the same problem. I didn't have time to get really scientific about the whole thing, but as I tried the various workarounds listed in this thread, the problem seemed to get worse . . .

So I'm back to 9.02 for now. Thanks so much, all, for such a thorough discussion of the problem. This is the first place I looked when the issue came up and as usual, I found answers here!

[Shooshie]

AFAIK, VIs and plugins seating in a V-rack, or in an aux track, will be processed real-time in DP9.1.

I think that they've fixed all that. Not sure about plugins, but VIs in an aux track are definitely able to do Pre-Gen. In fact, the only way to stop them from Pre-Gen is to open their interface and choose the menu option that allows it to run in real time when open.

In the early stages of V-Racks, those VIs ran in real time. They fixed that at least by DP6. Maybe earlier, but I don't remember. Aux tracks too. Everything in DP 9.1 is pre-gen unless you take pains to stop it.

Hard to keep track of all this stuff, isn't it?

Shoosh

[bayswater]

Glad to see you moved this Shooshie. I remember when you guys started this area because the trolls were getting in the way of productivity and the spirit of Mnation. Instead of solution it was one negative opinion after another. I think its to bad when a new version like 9.1 comes out with some ground breaking features. For me and others it has been amazing. When we celebrate the cool new features there seems to be a need by certain dudes to be the self appointed critics. I am fine with the bug finding but the negative editorializing is a drag and completely uncalled for.

Motu and many companies spend a lot of bucks to get products to market. Then to have the self anointed troll just tear down the product like it's crap is disheartening for me. I make my living from this program. I have used PT, Logic, Studio One for complete projects at the insistence of clients. Frankly I prefer DP for good reason. It's elegant and works better then the rest for how I work. When that opinion is voiced the wing nuts come out of the jar and for some reason are compelled to write a rebuttal.

Sadly these people just hurt the DP user base and it becomes polarizing. New users or those thinking of using DP run for the hills and I don't blame them. The negative comments are uncalled for. Interestingly they often come from people I've seen on other forums who trash DP and hail the virtues of the DAW they are using. Then they come to Mnation and pose as users. But the underlying message of their posts is always to tear down DP. I am tempted to out them. I'm glad I held off this time but I was getting cloase. Thanks again for moving this thread as it became a home for negative Nancy's instead of a helpful thread to find a solutions.

ive got 9.1 up and running and no plans to switch primary DAWs but surely we're all a bit disappointed that two of the features highlighted in the advertising don't actually work as intended? Maybe that gets expressed in different ways, but it can't just be wished away.

[waxman]

ive got 9.1 up and running and no plans to switch primary DAWs but surely we're all a bit disappointed that two of the features highlighted in the advertising don't actually work as intended? Maybe that gets expressed in different ways, but it can't just be wished away.

Agreed... what are the two features?