This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming...

[Shooshie]

Did you try it in a complex session, with hundreds of tracks, some of them with dozens of takes each?

34 takes.

Did you try editing the comp, and then moving things around some more, and back and forth? What do you do while your computer works and takes the time to Show Takes? How many times would you do this before it annoys you?

I have 12 processors. I'm not sure if that's why, but showing takes doesn't take too long. In fact, I just timed it: 5 seconds to show takes, 2 seconds to hide them. I can live with that, but yours may take longer. Mine is about a 4 minute song.

Like I said.
What you suggested obviously works.... when the session is simple with a couple of tracks.

The session is all audio; no MIDI. When takes are collapsed, I think I'm looking at about 12 tracks. But I'm not opening all takes at all times. Just the ones I'm working on.

Come on, guys! Am I really being unreasonable to suggest this?

No, not at all. Dramatic, perhaps, but not unreasonable. This is something worth feeling passionate about, and it should not have to depend on how long it takes to open them. The fact is, just selecting all those tracks is unwieldy. My workaround is not a good way to do it. It's just a workaround. Hopefully, until we can convince MOTU to change it.

How would this not be an improvement in DP for those who need coherence and uniformity in your main DAW?

Are you suggesting it's better the way it is?

Dude... give me a break! I'm on your side. But my first reaction to ANY problem is to find a way to get my work done, and since I've been on MOTUNation, to tell others about it. Once we alleviate the pain of thinking "this can't be done," then we can focus on getting MOTU to make it easier. But first, come up with the workaround. Get us back in the saddle to get our job done TODAY, then pressure MOTU to make it like we want it tomorrow.

How about the same issue with folders?

Folders needs work, too. Not as critical, perhaps, as takes, but still a problem. We need to outline the parameters and list it in the bug thread started by Robert Randolph. Technically, these things may not be bugs; they're just poor design. But when it interrupts your workflow and disadvantages you to an extreme, I have no problem calling it a "design bug."

Get everyone you know to contact MOTU, including your cousin, and let's see if we can get this fixed!

Shooshie

[FMiguelez]

No, not at all. Dramatic, perhaps, but not unreasonable.

Yeah. That's me, sometimes. Sorry about that!

It's just that yesterday night I was SO ANNOYED when I discovered this. Really. I spent ALL NIGHT fixing all the mess these "frozen" takes created (and I not preventing this from the beginning).

Not a fun night. Didn't mean to take it out on you, guys.

So you and I agree that TAKES and FOLDERS need some kind of addressing by MOTU (similar to what we had in DP7).

How about the rest of you? Still meh?

Folders needs work, too. Not as critical, perhaps, as takes, but still a problem.

I actually think Folders could be more problematic for the exact same reasons...
Think of a folder like a track with takes... (with many takes from many tracks, so it's worse).
So imagine forgetting to OPEN a folder that is buried in a nested structure (to include its tracks int the TR selection), and you move everything except for the rhythm section And you discover this after 2 hours of hard work...

[Robert Randolph]

How about the rest of you? Still meh?

Firstly, folders in DP are awful. Moving tracks in/out of folders is a disaster. Folders don't link tracks in any way (record? mute? solo? edit? bus?). They are damn near useless and very frustrating if you've experienced how any other major DAW handles track folders. I'd take any improvement for folders.

Secondly, this take behaviour is really silly. I've never encountered it because I comp immediately and then only work with the master track from there. I can certainly understand the workflow imagined in the OP though.

A workaround, I think, would be to explode the takes to tracks, group them, and throw them in a folder.

I'd test it, but it appears that I've found multiple bugs here, perhaps. Still experimenting.

[Robert Randolph]

I don't even know what's happening at this point...

Just using the comp tool and trying to move tracks twice, I've ended up with this monstrosity!



Egads!

Phantom comps, a lane that didn't move (despite being selected!), incorrect splits in the master, master not lined up, splits not corresponding across takes...

I'd contribute to my own bug thread but this is ridiculous. It all works fine as long as you don't move anything. Once you do, all hell breaks loose!

(edit: I just tried this in 3 other DAWs of well-renown and they all behave just fine. It doesn't seem unreasonable to expect similar well-behaving comp/take behaviour from DP)

[Prime Mover]

Totally agree with you, FM. I've been annoyed with this from day 1. At the very least, conductor track edits like insert measures and "snipping" whole measures should drill down and move all takes by default. And secondly, there should be a check box somewhere to "edit all takes" for any edits.

As for Folders, I've never had any issue with them. They're mostly for visual reference. Unless every folder got it's own channel strip with an input, I don't know how how you could treat them as sub mixes (as cool as that would be).

[Robert Randolph]

Totally agree with you, FM. I've been annoyed with this from day 1. At the very least, conductor track edits like insert measures and "snipping" whole measures should drill down and move all takes by default. And secondly, there should be a check box somewhere to "edit all takes" for any edits.

As for Folders, I've never had any issue with them. They're mostly for visual reference. Unless every folder got it's own channel strip with an input, I don't know how how you could treat them as sub mixes (as cool as that would be).

Try adding something to a folder track at the end, or taking stuff out of folder tracks, or moving multiple things to a folder track, or out of a folder, or moving the folder track itself...

Having a folder also optionally double as a bus is very useful. Being able to group-link tracks via a button on the folder is useful. Solo, mute and record buttons that are global to the folder are useful. Folder overview is extremely useful (the folder track shows an overview of all tracks in the timeline).

Lots of other things folder tracks could do, but at bare minimum it should be simple to move things in/out of them... and it's not.

[Shooshie]

It's just that yesterday night I was SO ANNOYED when I discovered this. Really. I spent ALL NIGHT fixing all the mess these "frozen" takes created (and I not preventing this from the beginning).

Not a fun night. Didn't mean to take it out on you, guys.

So you and I agree that TAKES and FOLDERS need some kind of addressing by MOTU (similar to what we had in DP7).

How about the rest of you? Still meh?

Folders needs work, too. Not as critical, perhaps, as takes, but still a problem.

I actually think Folders could be more problematic for the exact same reasons...
Think of a folder like a track with takes... (with many takes from many tracks, so it's worse).
So imagine forgetting to OPEN a folder that is buried in a nested structure (to include its tracks int the TR selection), and you move everything except for the rhythm section And you discover this after 2 hours of hard work...

Yeah, these are serious issues. Any action taken that feels normal, with no problems anticipated, but which results in serious mis-alignment of your audio is probably the worst "sin" possible for a DAW. If you do a lot of work on a track, chopping it up and moving it around, you could end up with the worst kind of patchwork mess possible. Even worse if someone doesn't have their Undo threshold set pretty high. It needs to be fixed.

Shooshie

[frankf]

To be the contrarian here, I'd hate to see the default change to edit hidden takes or tracks after years of edit what I can see. I'd be as good as confused and unhappy as the OP.

As far as not knowing the current state of a DP feature, I had for the longest time complained about the inability to see the Smart Selection status which would often cause me to make an unintended selection. I finally wrote a Keyboard Maestro macro to shown the Edit menu for 5 seconds then close it so I could check the if Smart Selection was checked. MOTU finally gave us a checkbox in the Selection pane. If this move option was implemented I suggest a similar icon be added to all edit windows.

[frankf]

As far as moving tracks in and out of folders and moving folders around you should check out the folder commands in the Commands window. I'm able to accomplish these tasks very quickly. There could always be more!

[Shooshie]

As far as moving tracks in and out of folders and moving folders around you should check out the folder commands in the Commands window. I'm able to accomplish these tasks very quickly. There could always be more!

The takes thing has got to be a preference, for sure, but I think maybe you're right in that there ought to be some sort of visual reminder as to which way it's set.

Folders need work just because they were always kind of an illusion. They figured out the quick-n-dirty way of adding folders without really adding folders. It reminds me of the original Macintosh OS, whose Finder had fake folders. They were just a cosmetic add-on to help with visual organization, but they didn't really create directories. It was several versions into the Macintosh System before they gave us actual hierarchical folders. MOTU's folders feel like cosmetic add-ons. They've gotten a little better since that first version that had them, but they still don't feel like the real things, and I haven't even tried to document the possible editing flaws that can occur to the tracks within when folders are closed.

[FMiguelez]

Totally agree with you, FM. I've been annoyed with this from day 1. At the very least, conductor track edits like insert measures and "snipping" whole measures should drill down and move all takes by default. And secondly, there should be a check box somewhere to "edit all takes" for any edits.

As for Folders, I've never had any issue with them. They're mostly for visual reference. Unless every folder got it's own channel strip with an input, I don't know how how you could treat them as sub mixes (as cool as that would be).

OMG!!

Are you saying that takes are NOT affected by the Snip or Insert Measures Command????

If this is the case, I think that IS unforgivable. I can't believe I haven't noticed this, but I've always operated under that very assumption... ESPECIALLY with the Insert Measures command!
The Conductor Track one is the MASTER track that keeps everything ticking!

I am glad that most times I work timings as my 1st step when I compose. But then that means that ALL my takes in all my projects are out of sync, since I ALWAYS end up inserting or deleting measures.

Now I am confused... Do closed Folders behave the same dumb way with Insert Measures or Snip commands?

These are the things that I REALLY want fixed in DP... Same for pasting and moving regions with automation or CCs without DP creating crazy ramps.
I don't even care for pre-rendering or whatever the new VI feature will be... I have multiple computers to share the processing burden... I just want to see a coherent, intuitive and uniform bug-free DP9.03.

[stubbsonic]

OMG!!

Are you saying that takes are NOT affected by the Snip or Insert Measures Command????

If this is the case, I think that IS unforgivable. I can't believe I haven't noticed this, but I've always operated under that very assumption... ESPECIALLY with the Insert Measures command!
The Conductor Track one is the MASTER track that keeps everything ticking!

This is clearly an issue of a different workflow (than me). I could say, well, you sound like you shouldn't be using takes if you want all edits to affect all takes, just record to different tracks, or comp first before mass edits. But that's me trying to apply my workflow (which almost never has large track counts or take counts) onto a different user with a completely different set of needs.

In any case, I don't envy MOTU trying to solve this particular issue.

[bayswater]

I don't even know what's happening at this point...

Just using the comp tool and trying to move tracks twice, I've ended up with this monstrosity!

Wasn't this one of the early issue list items when 9.0 arrived ? A TDH post?

[kassonica]

I feel your pain on this FMiguelez...

It's caught me out before, fortunately for me, I didn't really need anything in the extra takes, But I was surprised that they didn't move..

I agree that it's a major oversight that should be fixed sooner rather than later.

[Robert Randolph]

As far as moving tracks in and out of folders and moving folders around you should check out the folder commands in the Commands window. I'm able to accomplish these tasks very quickly. There could always be more!

Is there a way to move a group of tracks to a folder that doesn't require moving a single track, then using the 'move selected tracks to be together'? I also can't find any 'folder commands' in the commands window. Could you please elaborate?

Such as if I wanted to move Audio1-7 to 'New Folder'. How do you do that?



Or in this gif, how do I get Audio 5 in to Folder 2? I can't seem to do it in 1 step.



Or how did I manage this? How do I undo it?! (note that Audio 6 isn't in any folder, but it's in a sub-folder hierarchy!)



We can even make it weirder! Non-folder tracks inside folders with the hierarchy all backwards. It's anyone's guess what happens if you hit undo.



So surely if we close the folder, re-open it and maybe undo, then everything makes sense? Of course not! Tracks start going everywhere!

That quick track arrangement at the end is me hitting undo once. It moves the tracks twice, and the final result isn't anything like what we started with or intended. The gif doesn't catch it very well though.

Note that Audio 2 jumps out of the folder and audio 3 moves to a different folder!




Track folders have never worked correctly for me. I could go on really...

Anyway, take/comps and moving is also very broken. Back to your regularly scheduled ranting.