This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming...

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FMiguelez
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This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming...

Post by FMiguelez »

I've spent a few days recording an amazing singer, which happens to be my cousin.
Everything ran smooth, as expected.... Until editing time.

For whatever reason, after recording her voice with tons of takes to the music, I needed to move everything earlier. Easy, right? Simply select all your tracks from the wiper to the end, and use the keyboard arrows to move. Perfect! (I did this with a backing track and no tempo map nor click).

... That is, of course, until you start editing and realise that NONE of the millions of takes moved along with the currently showing take in their track.
Try re-accomodating all the takes in all the tracks again... Try recreating your moving steps so it all syncs again...

So no matter how you select your things, NONE of the takes will move or do anything you would EXPECT them to do when you select EVERYTHING.

I am sorry, but this is totally stupid and dumb. It makes no sense. I really got angry yesterday because of this. It seems to be such a basic and elementary thing!

Besides, didn't we have the option to include takes on tracks before? Or am I dreaming?
The only solution I see is to look for all the tracks that have takes. Show them all and Show their takes. ALL of them. THEN, you can select everything and move things.
Does this look like an effective way of working to you?

Please, MOUTU, please! At least give us a preference that we can set, so if the main track where there are takes is time-range selected, anything you do to the selection affects the takes inside as well.

This seems no be not only a mistake, but an bad overlook on MOTU's part.

WHY would one want takes to remain in their place, even if you move everything else?
I wasted HOURS fixing the mess this created.

:smash:
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"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by stubbsonic »

I don't want to sound unsympathetic, as I totally understand how frustrating that was.

But if I did some edit to visible tracks and then found out that other takes WERE affected, I would lose my marbles!!

Here are a couple of possible solutions (for MOTU to implement)

1. Add an optional preference
[] When initiating SELECT ALL, add warning about presence of takes (if they exist).

When ticked, if I do a COMMAND-A, and there are additional takes on any track in the current chunk, DP will warn me: "You can only select visible tracks, but you have other takes that will not be included in this selection."

2. Provide a quick way to explode all takes into current track list for this type of editing-- then provide a quick way to unexplode them after the edit.

I can't think of any other solutions I'd actually use or like.
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by FMiguelez »

stubbsonic wrote:I don't want to sound unsympathetic, as I totally understand how frustrating that was.

But if I did some edit to visible tracks and then found out that other takes WERE affected, I would lose my marbles!!
But we used to be able to do this around DP7! Or did that apply only to closed folders?

Like you said. A very simple preference could take care of all this.
I wouldn't expect the takes to be affected by everything, but at least they should move in the timeline along with everything else.
stubbsonic wrote: Here are a couple of possible solutions (for MOTU to implement)

1. Add an optional preference
[] When initiating SELECT ALL, add warning about presence of takes (if they exist).
Agreed.
But it should not only inform us about it, but deal with it. It should act according to the new preference.
Showing and Hiding takes for the sole purpose of allowing them to move with everything else seems too slow and a workflow killer... It really makes no sense!

I really don't want to do that every time I want to move something to the left a little, especially if you have MANY tracks with TONS of takes that live in an already HUGE template.
It simply becomes unmanageable.
A simple preference could take care of this.
stubbsonic wrote: When ticked, if I do a COMMAND-A, and there are additional takes on any track in the current chunk, DP will warn me: "You can only select visible tracks, but you have other takes that will not be included in this selection."

2. Provide a quick way to explode all takes into current track list for this type of editing-- then provide a quick way to unexplode them after the edit.

I can't think of any other solutions I'd actually use or like.
We have that already, but it's too slow.

But like I mentioned above, this wouldn't work at all.
Imagine having to keep exploding and hiding takes every time you want to make a simple move. You'd have to do that to every track. Then you would have to remember which tracks have takes and which don't... Which ones have you moved already?
And if are editing and you forget about some tracks with takes?

A little preference would definitely do.
When checked, I would know that DP will at least move all the takes along with anything else that is selected. It may, according to the preference, allow me to include takes for more advanced things as well.
If it's unchecked, then DP would behave "normally" in this respect. Or should I say "moronically"?
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by stubbsonic »

One issue is that DP can't (and perhaps shouldn't) know what you mean to do. And when DP (as an anthropomorphized program) assumes it knows what you want, it will be wrong some of the time.

If you select a time range, should DP assume you want to select takes for that time range as well? If you make a selection even within one track, again, DP has to guess if you want takes included?

Let's say that "Select-All" isn't a specific condition, it is simply the application's attempt at highlighting everything. What if you select all, then shift-click to unselect something? Does DP still assume you are working on hidden takes?

Perhaps another option would be to add some functionality to search function that will allow you to tick a box that says "Make selections within takes".

But who knows if DP can even allow non-displayed takes to even be selected without some major code overhaul?
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

You nailed the problem in the first sentence of the topic post: "for whatever reason."

You have the ability to move individual items to frame accurate locations. That's the way it should be.

You can, with some effort, move everything. The key question is why you are moving everything in the first place. If the takes and other tracks are lined up correctly then DP is doing its job correctly. Nothing to fix in the app.

It is not a typical scenario for me (and most others if my suspicions are correct) to have to move "millions" or even hundreds of takes. It's an unusual situation. It sounds like you're comping takes. If so, comp the vocals and move the finished master vocal track. One move and you're done.

I wouldn't want to see MOTU devote time and resources adding an option because once every few hundred thousand edits, a user wants to do a fairly unusual and unique movement of data in a series of tracks nested in folders of takes. There is no "shortcoming" in DP in this regard and no operator error, just a one-off situation that requires intense work to accommodate, for whatever reason.

BTW, care to share the reason? Some might have suggestions on how to avoid that situation again or even to suggest a remedy the current problem you're having.
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by FMiguelez »

stubbsonic wrote:One issue is that DP can't (and perhaps shouldn't) know what you mean to do. And when DP (as an anthropomorphized program) assumes it knows what you want, it will be wrong some of the time.
That would easily be taken care of with a preference.

It could be a checkbox that reads:
ALWAYS INCLUDE TAKES IN TIME-RANGE SELECTIONS
NEVER INCLUDE TAKES IN TIME-RANGE SELECTIONS
ONLY INCLUDE TAKES IN TIME-RANGE SELECTIONS WHEN PRESSING________


And another checkbox to tweak it more>
SELECTED TAKES WILL ONLY REACT TO>
__________ MOVES IN THE TIMELINE
__________ DELETIONS
__________ BITE GAIN CHANGES


stubbsonic wrote: If you select a time range, should DP assume you want to select takes for that time range as well? If you make a selection even within one track, again, DP has to guess if you want takes included?
Yes!
According to the set preference. It's not that complicated. I think it's too easy to implement.

Think of it like the preferences we already have about>
Copying Audio tracks to the project folder
Never look for beats automatically, etc.
Use dither or not use dither for merges, etc

So if you know that you will be moving things, and you have takes, simply go to the preferences and temporarily set it there.

My point is that, the way things are now, IS a big problem, and it needs to be fixed somehow.

The alternative, leaving it as is, creates unnecessary problems, and it looks quite amateurish to not even have an option to do this!
I was REALLY disappointed last night when I saw this.

My point is that it needs to be addressed.

SAME thing with FOLDERS... When and how should selections affect closed folders??
Last edited by FMiguelez on Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by Shooshie »

I was thinking about this problem the other day, but never got around to trying it. Here's what I was thinking:

1) Show Takes
2) Select all tracks: Comp and Takes
3) Move them

See if that works. I don't see why it wouldn't.

Shooshie
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by FMiguelez »

Yes.
That works when you have one track with a few takes and will make one move.

Try doing that every time you want to move something, when you have dozens of tracks with dozens of takes that require moving things around! Just for a mere move, every time I want to make one???

It's just not a good workflow. That would be a waste of time!

In many situations, it makes NO SENSE that when you move one take the rest of them remain in place.
I can see it both ways, of course. But again, a preference fixes and fulfils everyone's preferences :)

This can easily be addressed and brilliantly fixed by MOTU as I suggested in my post just above yours.
Last edited by FMiguelez on Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

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"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by FMiguelez »

BTW, with not too many tracks (less than 100), it takes my computer around 30 seconds to Show Takes.

That means it's not acceptable to do that more than a few times per session, if one values his time...
And my computer is quite fast.
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by Shooshie »

Shooshie wrote:I was thinking about this problem the other day, but never got around to trying it. Here's what I was thinking:

1) Show Takes
2) Select all tracks: Comp and Takes
3) Move them

See if that works. I don't see why it wouldn't.

Shooshie
Just tried it. It works.

[EDIT: THIS WORKS ONLY IN THE TRACKS WINDOW AT PRESENT TIME. IN THE SEQUENCE EDITOR THE TAKE TRACKS DO NOT MOVE TOGETHER WITH THE COMP TRACK.]
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by FMiguelez »

Did you try it in a complex session, with hundreds of tracks, some of them with dozens of takes each?

Did you try editing the comp, and then moving things around some more, and back and forth? What do you do while your computer works and takes the time to Show Takes? How many times would you do this before it annoys you?

Like I said.
What you suggested obviously works.... when the session is simple with a couple of tracks.

Come on, guys! Am I really being unreasonable to suggest this?

How would this not be an improvement in DP for those who need coherence and uniformity in your main DAW?

Are you suggesting it's better the way it is?

How about the same issue with folders?
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by Shooshie »

FMiguelez wrote:BTW, with not too many tracks (less than 100), it takes my computer around 30 seconds to Show Takes.

That means it's not acceptable to do that more than a few times per session, if one values his time...
And my computer is quite fast.
I agree that this is an area that needs immediate attention. It's just poor design to leave your takes behind in any kind of edit. What good is a take if it's not in place with the rest of them? However, you still need to be able to move them independently when you want to.

I'd say have the preferences default to moving all takes together, but move only the selected take when you hold a certain key or click a certain check box in the take itself.

Shoosh
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by FMiguelez »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:You nailed the problem in the first sentence of the topic post: "for whatever reason."

You have the ability to move individual items to frame accurate locations. That's the way it should be.

You can, with some effort, move everything. The key question is why you are moving everything in the first place. If the takes and other tracks are lined up correctly then DP is doing its job correctly. Nothing to fix in the app.

It is not a typical scenario for me (and most others if my suspicions are correct) to have to move "millions" or even hundreds of takes. It's an unusual situation. It sounds like you're comping takes. If so, comp the vocals and move the finished master vocal track. One move and you're done.

I wouldn't want to see MOTU devote time and resources adding an option because once every few hundred thousand edits, a user wants to do a fairly unusual and unique movement of data in a series of tracks nested in folders of takes. There is no "shortcoming" in DP in this regard and no operator error, just a one-off situation that requires intense work to accommodate, for whatever reason.

BTW, care to share the reason? Some might have suggestions on how to avoid that situation again or even to suggest a remedy the current problem you're having.
I hadn't seen your post, Mike.

Yes. The reason is that heavy changes were made to the music AFTER I recorded the singers. To more than one piece.
Believe, me! It wasn't my choice or my decision. I was stuck with that, and I was not able to comply effectively.

Some of the changes required creating a tempo map, moving things around etc.

But this situation also happens when we have CLOSED FOLDERS. I think of takes as "contained" in a closed track (until you show them).
How should closed folders behave when included in time-range selections?


As for the MOTU resources you mentioned, I'm really surprised you think of this as a remote possibility that some random user needs to use once in a while.

Do you guys really don't see the logic behind a simple preference that allows you to move ALL takes when you move ONE of them?
It can be that I'm wrong and it is a very unusual petition on my part... Judging by your no-support, I think it is the case :(

What annoys me is that we USED TO BE ABLE to do this with DP7, at least with folders...
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Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
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---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by FMiguelez »

Shooshie wrote:
FMiguelez wrote:BTW, with not too many tracks (less than 100), it takes my computer around 30 seconds to Show Takes.

That means it's not acceptable to do that more than a few times per session, if one values his time...
And my computer is quite fast.
I agree that this is an area that needs immediate attention. It's just poor design to leave your takes behind in any kind of edit. What good is a take if it's not in place with the rest of them? However, you still need to be able to move them independently when you want to.

I'd say have the preferences default to moving all takes together, but move only the selected take when you hold a certain key or click a certain check box in the take itself.

Shoosh
Ha!
Finally!
So I'm not crazy :)

Thank you, Shoosh!
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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Re: This definitely needs to be fixed. Major DP shortcoming.

Post by FMiguelez »

Actually, now YOU nailed it, Shoosh.

And that's why I didn't want to mention the reason or the situation that threw this at me. I do not want to focus on that.

My point is that it just seems like bad design to leave takes behind, as Shooshie eloquently expressed.
Last edited by FMiguelez on Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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