Community bug list, ya/nay?

[Robert Randolph]

Well, it's a noble experiment so hopefully the bugs in the bug thread will get fixed in the .01 version.

I do wish to reinforce that this is indeed an experiment.

It really depends on the cooperation and communication of everyone on the forum. I'm willing to put in as much effort as is necessary to produce a positive result.

Hopefully good things come out of it.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Btw, I suggest moving any off topIf posts in the bug thread here (in this thread, not my studio). If this is gonna work it needs to be empirically verifiable bugs. After some more thought the concept is starting get traction with me. Thanks for taking it on.

[toodamnhip]

Checked out the new thread. Thanks for the hard work.

Two things pop out:

1- Reporting with all the "requirements" and having to copy and paste to report seems more than a bit excessive. Many will be put off by that.

+1

[Shooshie]

1- Reporting with all the "requirements" and having to copy and paste to report seems more than a bit excessive. Many will be put off by that.

Anyone who can't handle this simple format has no business filing bug reports. There has to be some rigor so that a report can be understood by all. The outline Robert created is pretty minimal. Let's trust that that the level of sophistication and education which makes it possible for our users to manage DP will also make it possible for them to manage these simple fields.

It puts all these bugs on the same examination table, making it easier for us all to see why they are bugs. It won't take long to write, and it beats the heck out of trying to makes sense of some of the stream-of-consciousness reports we've all tried to decipher from time to time. The problem is that we all know a bug when we see one, but when it comes to telling someone else about it we may go blank. Instead, we tend to describe "what happened to me." Robert's simple requirements give us a framework to start with so that everyone is on the same page, description-wise. If something doesn't fit, then expand on it. Do whatever it takes to get the point across clearly. But Robert's outline should help most people get the bug on paper.

It's not the law, it's an aid.

Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

So newbies need not apply. Hmmm....

[Shooshie]

So newbies need not apply. Hmmm....

Said nothing about newbies.

What I'm saying is that anyone who looks at Robert's form and TRIES to make their description fit it will find that they actually can do that.

I just tried it with a borderline-gray-area bug that I didn't think was going to fit at all. After a few tries, I was able to get it to fit pretty well.

The point is NOT that you shouldn't try, or that anyone "need not apply;" the point is that ANYONE can do it. Again, I repeat: "Let's trust that that the level of sophistication and education which makes it possible for our users to manage DP will also make it possible for them to manage these simple fields."

Shooshie

[Robert Randolph]

I'd like to point that in the FAQ I almost address this.

I don't want to, or I can not, post on this forum, but I have a bug. What do I do?

Feel free to email me directly. audiolabs [at] gmail.com I will be watching other DP-centric groups personally and if I can replicate issues I will log them here.

I should probably add something else though... hmm.

I will happily accept bug reports personally and try to figure it out myself, but I also don't want people to be lazy for no reason.

Still conflicted on this.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Looking at the first few "experimental" posts in the bug threads the words that come to mind are "verbose, excessive, intensely regulated." Again, if it's not a fast and simple process to report the "bugs" many members will be turned off.

The other thing that I'm left wondering is if this is a bug report thread or an "open wannabie beta tester" thread? I'm not a beta tester for any company so don't know how you guys make your offIcial reports. Maybe you send in this much info every time; maybe you send in a quick description and workarounds?

I want this to work, but my initial reticence to the thread was/is based on the belief that the discussion would get out of control for even experience users.

Other concerns are:

What might otherwise be posted and resolved in the usual manner on the board will get bulked into one very long and convoluted "bug" thread.

Searching "post titles only" won't result in a useful result if you're looking for a specific problem previously reported IN IT'S OWN THREAD. The members would have to search by keyword and wade thru a list of posts (as opposed to topic titles) and read thru them. This gets old fast and will turn off a lot of people.

If someone reports a non-bug and that info isn't parsed to its own thread, it will either get lost in the bug thread, deleted as "inappropriate" by a moderator, or moved to a new thread by a moderator. Many members will not be motivated to repost - which impacts the overall effectiveness of the entire forum!

I've been moderating online forums since 1988 or so starting on Compuserve in the MIDI/Music forum. That's 28 years of moderating. I've seen a lot and organized a lot. Most users starting topics are (hopefully) specific and provide just enough info to get the help needed or provide the help needed in the event a future member with a similar problem finds those posts.

The "bug thread" seems too generalized to be useful, IMO. This was my initial reservation and after just a couple of posts, it's worse than I expected. It's not like the "Tips" thread that people might browse for helpful info. If you're in bug hell, the last thing you want to do is spend time "browsing" many pages looking for answers. You want to find out fast what's going on, fix it or find a workaround, or find a plan B, C, or give up the ghost.

IMHO the bug thread as conceived and implemented currently is not only unworkable and convoluted, it may be detrimental to the continued success of this forum.

If people want to REPORT suspected bugs they should do that directly to MOTU. If they want to report a problem or "play" beta-tester, they already have a well functioning venue to do so.

I realize I'm in the minority in this view and many members, moderators, and even the board owner don't necessarily share my view on this. So be it. From my perspective, if the thread isn't somehow streamlined and simplified for the members seeking to contribute and utilize it, it will either become a monster which could not only turn people off and be largely ineffective, but could conceivably adversely impact the overall usefulness of the entire forum.

I continue to believe this is a bad idea. No offense to anyone intended.

[Robert Randolph]

I think you misunderstand how this is working, and intends to work.

I am going to break down your concerns into multiple quotes, but please don't take this as trying to start an argument (as many people do when they respond like this).

Looking at the first few "experimental" posts in the bug threads the words that come to mind are "verbose, excessive, intensely regulated." Again, if it's not a fast and simple process to report the "bugs" many members will be turned off.

The other thing that I'm left wondering is if this is a bug report thread or an "open wannabie beta tester" thread? I'm not a beta tester for any company so don't know how you guys make your offIcial reports. Maybe you send in this much info every time; maybe you send in a quick description and workarounds?

Motu already expects the same information when submitting a techlink.

I basically copied the techlink submission page, but added more useful metadata (that I manage, not that users must include).

Regardless, people are free to post bugs however they want. They can also contact me directly and I will format the bug report for them.

I will make it more clear that the bug reports can be formatted in any way, but that specific information needs to be included regardless.

What might otherwise be posted and resolved in the usual manner on the board will get bulked into one very long and convoluted "bug" thread.

That is why I have a post with quick links to issues. It's in the third post.



Each of those has a direct link to the bug report, and each bug report has links to forum posts where independent discussion of the search has occurred or may be occurring.

This does need to be at the top of the thread. This is an oversight on my part and I will make it more prominent.

Searching "post titles only" won't result in a useful result if you're looking for a specific problem previously reported IN IT'S OWN THREAD. The members would have to search by keyword and wade thru a list of posts (as opposed to topic titles) and read thru them. This gets old fast and will turn off a lot of people.

Not necessary to 'search post titles only'. See the above response. You could simply cmd-f on the first page for a topical word in your bug such as 'track selector'.

If someone reports a non-bug and that info isn't parsed to its own thread, it will either get lost in the bug thread, deleted as "inappropriate" by a moderator, or moved to a new thread by a moderator. Many members will not be motivated to repost - which impacts the overall effectiveness of the entire forum!

The 4th post in the thread will list all issues rejected as not-bugs. The template is already there, but there's been nothing rejected yet.

I don't intend to let things get lost like you suggest may happen. My motto is: "All bug reports are sacred, but not all are valid."

The "bug thread" seems too generalized to be useful, IMO. This was my initial reservation and after just a couple of posts, it's worse than I expected. It's not like the "Tips" thread that people might browse for helpful info. If you're in bug hell, the last thing you want to do is spend time "browsing" many pages looking for answers. You want to find out fast what's going on, fix it or find a workaround, or find a plan B, C, or give up the ghost.

I bolded the important part in your statement. I 100% completely agree with this, and that's why I feel this thread is important.

Currently there is no organized list of bugs. There's no quick reference to find issues, no way to find issues that Motu has confirmed, and searching the forum when someone may have phrased the bug differently is very frustrating. I'm having trouble even finding bug posts that I made using the search feature!

The fact that there's a 'at a glance' header along with the quoted summaries makes it far easier to find if a bug has been reported.

I also have attached workarounds to each bug. If you find the bug that is affecting you, you no longer have to read a 5 page thread to find if someone found a workaround. It's right there. Quick.

I also have a tag of [Accepted by Motu] which will allow at least a partial list of issues that we know Motu is aware of. Currently we have no centralized way of knowing if Motu is aware of a bug. This may potentially reduce workload on their support as well, which benefits us all.

IMHO the bug thread as conceived and implemented currently is not only unworkable and convoluted, it may be detrimental to the continued success of this forum.

I don't think anyone expects this to totally replace the troubleshooting forum. It's an organized supplement to what people are already doing.

The hope is that overtime a more thorough culture for reporting bugs, in the thread and elsewhere, develops in the community. I believe that when people know their information is being seen and taken care of, they will be more apt to provide better information.

It already happened at the Steinberg forums if you've followed there for the last decade. With a managed bug forum, the expectation for good bug reporting has gone way up. In general across the forum people have become much more thorough in their investigation and reporting of issues.

The same has also happened with the recent Ableton Live open beta forum. Despite the beta forum being a completely separate entity, the main forum's overall tone regarding bug reports has changed drastically.

[Robert Randolph]

MLC, I'd like to make sure you know that your dissent has improved this effort.

Some of your objections have led to fairly big improvements, so thank you for your participation in this even if you don't approve of the idea.

edit: 2:17pm EDT - I've update the thread to alleviate some of the concerns you brought up. Hopefully this makes it easier for people to quickly retrieve information and file reports.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Thanks. I'm not trying to be difficult, just looking at things from the perspective of end users.

[Shooshie]

It's a learning process.

When you are asked to dance, you mimic the first steps. In a little while you're dancing. Give us all a chance to learn the steps. We've never tried a moderated bug thread before. We've tried non-moderated bug threads, and they QUICKLY devolve into a morass of heated debates, accusations, disagreements, and so forth. I know that doesn't work.

This is our first attempt literally to force a bug thread to stay on topic. If it does not stay on topic, and if the descriptions aren't held to a certain level of rigor, it's basically wasted effort. Let's learn how to do this.

While I am all ears as to why you think it's not working, MLC, I've read your concerns again and again, and I just have to disagree. I think it's working fine. Anyone who wants to post a bug will find it EASIER to use this layout, because it forces a certain organization of thought. When I posted my test bug, I intentionally chose one in a gray area that might be rejected by some as a bug. But as I used the format, it gradually took shape and I realized that it actually passes the test.

If you don't believe me, try reporting a bug yourself. I'm not saying that it's a 2 minute breeze. I'm saying that the format forces you to make your reports like the others, so that readers will find it easy to compare one bug to another and see WHY it's a bug, what might be done about it, and so forth. It's really a good thing.

I'm serious. Try it.

Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I would if there were any bugs that were bothering me or impedIng my workflow. Aside from random crashing, I'm not having any serious issues in DP.

What?!

[Robert Randolph]

I would if there were any bugs that were bothering me or impedIng my workflow. Aside from random crashing, I'm not having any serious issues in DP.

What?!

I'm also enjoying the irony that I started this and I have no bugs to report currently.

[monkey man]

Brilliant, Robert! Incredible effort. Dare I say it, It's Shooshie-like.

I cannot overstate how impressed I am by your efforts in conceptualising and implementing the threads (one for Windoze too, right?).

Bra-bloody-vo, mate, and thank you on behalf of all of us.