Broken plugin automation, DP8.07

[rlcartwright]

Hi All:

I noticed a while ago that when I took a snapshot of the Brainworx BX_Digital V3 and enabled automation that all my settings got screwed up. I couldn't find a work around and thought it was just a Brainworx problem. Now, I'm trying to take a snapshot of the Metric Halo Channel Strip and it does the same thing. I also checked plugins from PSP and UA - same problem. The only ones that seem to do automation correctly are the MOTU plugs and Wave plugs. In my Setup/Automation window I seem to have everything correctly selected and there's nothing in the DP Prefs that would control this behavior. This is, obviously, a major problem.

DP8.07, MacOS 10.8.5

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Robert

Robert Cartwright
perfectwavedigital.com/
San Diego, CA

[Shooshie]

I don't do much plugin automation anymore, so I haven't encountered this yet, but I don't doubt that you are having a problem with it. Could you just describe more precisely what is happening, besides "screwed up?" I know of other problems that happen, for example, in "Lines Mode" of MIDI continuous data, and/or drawing or editing automation. If this is similar or the same as those problems, then I believe MOTU is aware of it and has promised a fix of it. If it's not the same, we need to report it, but I can't tell if it's the same if I don't know what it is!

Shooshie

[rlcartwright]

Hi Shooshie, thanks for replying. While troubleshooting, I tried plugs from several vendors to see if the problems were with just certain third-party plugs or were more global, which would indicate a DP8.07 problem. As I tried different plugins on a new, empty project, this is what I found:

1) Brainworx
A) BX_Digital V3.0; According to the Brainworx site, it works with OS10.6-10.11. Loses settings; Q's, gains and freqs change. Curve display doesn't update until I move a knob, then it shows. When I hit play or enable automation, or hit stop or rewind, all the parameters change and the display goes flat. I updated to V3.1. No change. V2.6 has same problem. I corresponded several times with the Brainworx techs but got no joy. I'm merely taking snapshots, rewinding and playing with the automation on. I've also done a snapshot at time zero, then, several seconds later, changed the parameters and played through from the start to see if the parameters updated correctly. They often didn't, as shown below. I am not altering any information in the automation lanes. As you can see, I just tried a few plugs from each company, so I don't know if I found all the issues.

B) bx_bluechorus 2, V1.2; OK
C) bx_distorange V1.2; OK
D) bx_yellowdrive V1.2: OK
E) bx_opto V1.1; OK
F) bx_greenscreamer V1.2: OK
2) Waves
A) Ren EQ6: OK
B) LinMB: OK
C) PuigTec EQP-1A: OK
3) UA
A) Neve 1081 SE: Changes parameters when I rewind.
B) Prec EQ: OK?
C) CS-1: Parameters change.
D) Prec CS: Very random.
4) PSP
A) Neon HR: Parameters change.
B) VW2: Also bad.

I also checked my settings under the
Setup/automation menu, and tried everything I could think of. Also Event Chasing. I made sure that there was no "lost" information hiding in a track to confuse things. Finally, I took the "com.motu.DigitalPerformer.plist" file out of the user Library/Prefs folder to reset the DP prefs to factory, but I'm not sure that was the correct file to take out. I noticed when I rebooted the computer and started DP that a new file wasn't created to take its place. Is this the correct one to erase? There is another Pref file in the "com.motu.DigitalPerformer" folder also.

Any way, thanks for your kind willingness to help.

Best wishes,

Robert

[toodamnhip]

You have come upon my biggest pet peeve about DP, snap shot automation being screwed up. If I let myself get going, I will be typing pages here, and..I have to work so...none of that.

Here’s something you can try,
1) Complain to mOTU in tech links as they have stopped responding to mine. (I think many users here do not thoroughly employ snap shot automation and thus, users who do need this appear as outliers)
2) Most of all, MANUALLY enter in all parameters BEFORE snap shot and it should work. To do this, double click on the left most parameter after setting your plug in, RE-enter the data and hit TAB. This will bring you to the next parameter. Keep doing so till all values filled in.. Then, manually click all buttons , setting them where you want them. For ex-if an EQ channel is on, click twice, turning it off and then on again. After “nudging” all parameters this way, snap shot and it should work except in a few plug ins where nothing will work.
These instructions should really be done even better and put in as a sticky as this IS the workaround for what has been a broken part of DP for some time. Good luck

[Shooshie]

You have come upon my biggest pet peeve about DP, snap shot automation being screwed up. If I let myself get going, I will be typing pages here, and..I have to work so...none of that.

Here’s something you can try,
1) Complain to mOTU in tech links as they have stopped responding to mine. (I think many users here do not thoroughly employ snap shot automation and thus, users who do need this appear as outliers)
2) Most of all, MANUALLY enter in all parameters BEFORE snap shot and it should work. To do this, double click on the left most parameter after setting your plug in, RE-enter the data and hit TAB. This will bring you to the next parameter. Keep doing so till all values filled in.. Then, manually click all buttons , setting them where you want them. For ex-if an EQ channel is on, click twice, turning it off and then on again. After “nudging” all parameters this way, snap shot and it should work except in a few plug ins where nothing will work.
These instructions should really be done even better and put in as a sticky as this IS the workaround for what has been a broken part of DP for some time. Good luck

Don't think you're the only one. Many of us have complained, and MOTU has responded that they get it. DP9.1 is taking a long time, and I can only hope that it means they are getting it RIGHT.

If they aren't responding to you, maybe it's because there is nothing left to say. They're fixing it. It takes time. You're frustrated in the meantime, because you have work to do and clients to please, so you repeat your frustrations, thinking they've forgotten you. Remember that programming is way more frustrating than anything you or I do in DP. It's like playing Whack-a-Mole in 3-D Surround, but with text instead of paddles. It takes time to figure out the problems, and more time to figure out how to fix them so they quit popping up when you turn your back.

Or, they could be ignoring us all and hoping we'll forget about it.

Hey, this is MOTU; that's not likely.

That said, I remember things in the 1990s that took 6 or 8 years. Sometimes it took getting the right person to listen, because everyone else had a preconceived idea of what they thought you were saying, so they stopped listening by the 2nd sentence. For one of those things, I finally got hold of a female programmer, and she got it immediately. She was upset, and said "oh, this won't do. This has to be fixed!" I'd talked to many people over many years before I caught her ear. It just took getting the right person; within 6 months it was fixed.

I'm not telling you not to worry about it. I'm saying that 9.1 is most likely going to be the fix of all that. I talked to MOTU on several occasions about it, and each time they told me it was in the hands of the programmers. They had replicated it and understood it. I heard one conflicting report from someone else in this forum, but maybe that person talked to a tech person who didn't really know. The ones I talked to knew about it.

The automation problem is part of a larger problem (editing in lines mode and other continuous data editing bugs) that simply has to be fixed. If they fail to fix it, DP's future would not look good at all, but they know about it, and they know these are big stakes. You'd be mistaken to think that nobody else uses automation or the other edit features that connect with it. This is major. MOTU knows that.

Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

You have come upon my biggest pet peeve about DP, snap shot automation being screwed up. If I let myself get going, I will be typing pages here, and..I have to work so...none of that.

Here’s something you can try,
1) Complain to mOTU in tech links as they have stopped responding to mine. (I think many users here do not thoroughly employ snap shot automation and thus, users who do need this appear as outliers)
2) Most of all, MANUALLY enter in all parameters BEFORE snap shot and it should work. To do this, double click on the left most parameter after setting your plug in, RE-enter the data and hit TAB. This will bring you to the next parameter. Keep doing so till all values filled in.. Then, manually click all buttons , setting them where you want them. For ex-if an EQ channel is on, click twice, turning it off and then on again. After “nudging” all parameters this way, snap shot and it should work except in a few plug ins where nothing will work.
These instructions should really be done even better and put in as a sticky as this IS the workaround for what has been a broken part of DP for some time. Good luck

Don't think you're the only one. Many of us have complained, and MOTU has responded that they get it. DP9.1 is taking a long time, and I can only hope that it means they are getting it RIGHT.

If they aren't responding to you, maybe it's because there is nothing left to say. They're fixing it. It takes time. You're frustrated in the meantime, because you have work to do and clients to please, so you repeat your frustrations, thinking they've forgotten you. Remember that programming is way more frustrating than anything you or I do in DP. It's like playing Whack-a-Mole in 3-D Surround, but with text instead of paddles. It takes time to figure out the problems, and more time to figure out how to fix them so they quit popping up when you turn your back.

Or, they could be ignoring us all and hoping we'll forget about it.

Hey, this is MOTU; that's not likely.

That said, I remember things in the 1990s that took 6 or 8 years. Sometimes it took getting the right person to listen, because everyone else had a preconceived idea of what they thought you were saying, so they stopped listening by the 2nd sentence. For one of those things, I finally got hold of a female programmer, and she got it immediately. She was upset, and said "oh, this won't do. This has to be fixed!" I'd talked to many people over many years before I caught her ear. It just took getting the right person; within 6 months it was fixed.

I'm not telling you not to worry about it. I'm saying that 9.1 is most likely going to be the fix of all that. I talked to MOTU on several occasions about it, and each time they told me it was in the hands of the programmers. They had replicated it and understood it. I heard one conflicting report from someone else in this forum, but maybe that person talked to a tech person who didn't really know. The ones I talked to knew about it.

The automation problem is part of a larger problem (editing in lines mode and other continuous data editing bugs) that simply has to be fixed. If they fail to fix it, DP's future would not look good at all, but they know about it, and they know these are big stakes. You'd be mistaken to think that nobody else uses automation or the other edit features that connect with it. This is major. MOTU knows that.

Shooshie

I hope you’re right brother. I would love to somehow “get to”....the “right” programmer and “convince” them it’s important enough or that there is a real problem. I doubt 9.1 will fix automation. Evrytime MOTU goes in some giant new direction, bugs most likely become 2nd to the giant new direction. It is my guess MOTU is banking on being the most efficient processor in the music biz much more than they wish to put resources into automation bugs. And funny thing is, “efficiency” used to be my #1 issue before I found VE Pro.

I will say that on a day to day basis, I do amazing things with DP and I know I use it very hard and it is quite amazing. Sometimes I marvel at what is going on in a session. If they fix automation, personally, I could stop with DP 9 for quite some time and be happy. However, guess what? Pro Tools has brought out the real “next big thing”, and MOTU will soon have to change and catch up to that. NETWORKING. Inner DAW complete networking with outside sessions around the world. Interchangeable MIDI and audio, all without leaving the daw, plus video and live chat. All inside the DAW. That will have to be DP 10. Add to that a world wide forum to efficiently connect users and that is really what’s ahead for ALL DAWs of the future. Pro Tools nailed it. And all DAWs will have to catch up. Where does fixing automation bugs fit into all that? I’m not optimistic. But hoping right?,

[Shooshie]

RE: ProTools Networking: I think the key to networking is having the pieces in place for the puzzle when you're ready to put it together. MOTU introduced networking to DP with DP Control. Actually, they introduced it back in the 1990s if you include the links between files that connected files for reference. (I don't remember how it worked, because I never really used it)

Fast forward to this year: MOTU introduced the AVB interfaces. What do they do? They network over ethernet cables, which means they are basically internet-ready. When you've got the I/O set up, all you have to do is assign tracks. I think DP will do networking slicker than any other DAW. The whole setup is already done. It's just a matter of applying it.

There's just one more piece of the networking puzzle before tying it up with a bow: low latency. And guess what's going to be the lowest latency DAW out there... Yep, DP. I think networking is going to be a simple matter of publishing tracks and assigning them. The rest is done.

Shooshie