DP 9.02 automation has gone whacko But DP 8 works

[Rick Cornish]

Watching this thread with great interest. While I don't think any of the reported issues with 9.02 would affect me, I'm holding at 9.01 for the present as it's been very stable for me thus far. I may wait for v9.1 to upgrade.

[Shooshie]

It is embarrassing to work with one company as a tester and not be able to work with my own DAW.

I'm not a beta tester of DP, either. I was an early beta tester of Professional Composer and Performer, and still have the NDA from that, but it was 30 years ago! I just kept sending MOTU long lists of things to be fixed over the years, but I stopped getting beta copies to test. While I offered my services as a tester many times over they years, it never happened.

Still, when I look back at the dozens of features added at my suggestion over 30 years, and the many bugs I've identified that were fixed, I see that you don't have to be an official beta tester to do that for them. I think it's more about how you present it. If you can explain the problem clearly so someone not familiar with your workflow can easily see it, then figure out the source of the problem — which can be daunting, sometimes — and lay out a path to fix it, MOTU will usually fix it.

There are some problems that seem to defy our pleas for repair, and one can only wonder if such bugs are sitting like time-bombs, which if tinkered with would set off a domino string of catastrophes that require redesigning the entire architecture of DP. Why else would they not fix them? But I'm speculating. It may be that they just don't get enough requests. I don't know. But I do know the frustration you're going through. I've been through it, too. Still wouldn't trade DAWs with anyone.

Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

It is embarrassing to work with one company as a tester and not be able to work with my own DAW.

I'm not a beta tester of DP, either. I was an early beta tester of Professional Composer and Performer, and still have the NDA from that, but it was 30 years ago! I just kept sending MOTU long lists of things to be fixed over the years, but I stopped getting beta copies to test. While I offered my services as a tester many times over they years, it never happened.

Still, when I look back at the dozens of features added at my suggestion over 30 years, and the many bugs I've identified that were fixed, I see that you don't have to be an official beta tester to do that for them. I think it's more about how you present it. If you can explain the problem clearly so someone not familiar with your workflow can easily see it, then figure out the source of the problem — which can be daunting, sometimes — and lay out a path to fix it, MOTU will usually fix it.

There are some problems that seem to defy our pleas for repair, and one can only wonder if such bugs are sitting like time-bombs, which if tinkered with would set off a domino string of catastrophes that require redesigning the entire architecture of DP. Why else would they not fix them? But I'm speculating. It may be that they just don't get enough requests. I don't know. But I do know the frustration you're going through. I've been through it, too. Still wouldn't trade DAWs with anyone.

Shooshie

Ever since we met long long ago the methods by which MOTU run its company have been a mystery. You’re reminding me how various members have said we are all unwittingly Beta testers for MOTU.
And I truly hope that the automation issues aren’t a domino effect situation. That would indeed suck. I know that copy and paste and snap shot seem to work with DPs proprietary plug ins, so that shows at least something under the hood is working. At least I think they work right. Id have to test the on-the-fly pasting of FX parameters, but I seem to recall they work for DP’s plugs.
But to mix with DP’s plugs only, while possible, would just suck. I use a few of them and I could use more of them if I had to. But I think the vast vast majority of pros do not mix with DP’s plugs alone. That being the case, that also means DP has no real excuse to rely on it’s plugs only working proprietarily. Again, maybe all this acrimony is due to NO word from MOTU. I think they could save themselves a lot of criticism if they’d just come out and state that they knew there was a problem and either can, or cannot fix it.
There ARE work arounds for the plug ins issues so, in the event they can NOT fix it, they should publish work arounds. Ah, as always, we guess and guess at what’s behind the magic MOTU wizard curtain.
I will add here Shoosh, that Pro Tools has a VERY important new feature which may make it impossible for many of us to stay with MOTU, and that says to me, MOTU has yet another challenge. Networking capability. It IS the future and Pro Tools is nailing it the way they allow sessions at off site locations to sync up and import.

So besides needing to fix DP, (our favorite DAW), they are going to have to catch up with what Pro Tools is doing with networking. All the DAWs are going to have to follow suite. It is just too cool, too vital in today;s world wide market place. If you have not checked out Pro Tools 12.5 and above for networking, check it out. A great place to see them demonstrate it is NAMM. But I am sure they have videos online. Funny thing is, I hear of all the lay offs at Avid, after seeing how great the new updates are, and it scares me because it shows that making a great new product might not be enough in today’s shrinking music industry. If Avid is laying off, what does this say about MOTU’s difficulties?

ah, I digress from automation again....

[Michael Canavan]

On the awkwardly optimistic note, it's very possible that MOTU have already done a huge portion of the code in 9.02 for the upcoming 9.1 NextGen PreGen release, and that's why there are new bugs related to MIDI and automation, things that might have had to be recoded to allow for the new pregen engine with low latency etc. So it's entirely possible the bulk of the bugs get fixed with the 9.1 update, as it was preparing for the 9.1 update that caused them in the first place.

Networking between projects and studios is definitely the newest thing, but how well does it work? Ableton tried to implement it a couple years ago and had to abandon it, which didn't sit well at all with people. Ohm Force have a whole DAW devoted specifically to collaboration over networks, it does well I suppose, but it's a matter of paid subscription to their DAW to use it. That's part of the issue there, exactly how do you get a customer base to pay for the devoted servers? With Ohm Studio it's roughly $100 a year. In the case of Pro Tools people are used to paying and I suppose it's possible via ethernet for local in house etc.

[toodamnhip]

On the awkwardly optimistic note, it's very possible that MOTU have already done a huge portion of the code in 9.02 for the upcoming 9.1 NextGen PreGen release, and that's why there are new bugs related to MIDI and automation, things that might have had to be recoded to allow for the new pregen engine with low latency etc. So it's entirely possible the bulk of the bugs get fixed with the 9.1 update, as it was preparing for the 9.1 update that caused them in the first place.

Networking between projects and studios is definitely the newest thing, but how well does it work? Ableton tried to implement it a couple years ago and had to abandon it, which didn't sit well at all with people. Ohm Force have a whole DAW devoted specifically to collaboration over networks, it does well I suppose, but it's a matter of paid subscription to their DAW to use it. That's part of the issue there, exactly how do you get a customer base to pay for the devoted servers? With Ohm Studio it's roughly $100 a year. In the case of Pro Tools people are used to paying and I suppose it's possible via ethernet for local in house etc.

1) Except that the automation bugs have been around since late 7 or early DP 8, so while it is theoretically possible these bugs are fixe, it won’t because they are “DP9” bugs. And the longer bugs last, the least likely MOTU can be to fix them at times.
2) Other manufacturers “trying” networking is not the same a Avid for at least the sole reason that Avid is everywhere and in most studios. Their networking already looks great at 12.5 or whatever they are on. And when they add built in video, (if they can make it work well enough---tough), the package will be groundbreaking. Everyone is going to have to follow. Think of the DP film guys being able to network stems at a moments notice with changes being made seamlessly while a film is being mixed. Music is always last to get on a film so any way to allow for later changes will make directors very happy. This networking subject really should be it’s own thread as it is BIG. I really think seamless networking in DAWs is the next “big thing”. Not such a bold prediction, seems pretty obvious.

[Michael Canavan]

1) I'm going off your original post, and the name of the thread. Things have gotten a lot worse, it might be because some behind the scenes things are changing even in 9.02, so at least 9.1 will be as stable as 8 is for you.

2) Pro Tools being ubiquitous doesn't mean they're solid and everything they do is awesome, otherwise we would all be using it right? As it stand Ohm Studio is the only DAW that has solid internet based networking, but it's geared towards collaboration and composition, not post production. That said I wouldn't doubt if Avid did a good job with this since it would be a huge benefit to them. From what I know Nuendo has similar features over ethernet, but online is a different story.

I have to be honest here, if Pro Tools or Logic gets solid internet based project networking it would make either of them desirable to me since in the greater Seattle area it's those two and occasionally Ableton Live. Obviously if DP came out with a solid networking plan before those ones do it would be that much easier to get people to use it. As it stands the best bet would be to use Ohm Studio for collaboration, since it's been out a couple years now and should be the most solid platform out there for this sort of thing.

[toodamnhip]

1) I'm going off your original post, and the name of the thread. Things have gotten a lot worse, it might be because some behind the scenes things are changing even in 9.02, so at least 9.1 will be as stable as 8 is for you.

2) Pro Tools being ubiquitous doesn't mean they're solid and everything they do is awesome, otherwise we would all be using it right? As it stand Ohm Studio is the only DAW that has solid internet based networking, but it's geared towards collaboration and composition, not post production. That said I wouldn't doubt if Avid did a good job with this since it would be a huge benefit to them. From what I know Nuendo has similar features over ethernet, but online is a different story.

I have to be honest here, if Pro Tools or Logic gets solid internet based project networking it would make either of them desirable to me since in the greater Seattle area it's those two and occasionally Ableton Live. Obviously if DP came out with a solid networking plan before those ones do it would be that much easier to get people to use it. As it stands the best bet would be to use Ohm Studio for collaboration, since it's been out a couple years now and should be the most solid platform out there for this sort of thing.

I am one of those guys that can play all parts on a production, A-Z. Bigger productions such as Faith Hill etc, yes, I go where I am needed and sit in the room with musicians, orchestras, bands, singers, whatever. But on a day to day basis, the world has been my work space and it is a rare event when someone actually comes to the studio nowadays. Most often vocalist come when a track is finished. The next step to that will be the session files being remotely located with me making parts and shooting them back and forth in close to real time. This is especially valuable for musicians. I can fathom a world where I don;t have to do drums in EZ drummer /Superior. Where I have 30 drummers around the world to tap into in close to real time. I send a basic beat and while I work on a section, real drums are made. I see a little green indicator in my DAW, hit “ok”, the drums arrive. In some ways, Pro Tools is unneeded for this as it can happen pretty fast in other ways. But Avid is organizing an entire artist community and the sheer connectivity of it all is very exciting. Need a violin solo? Go to the network, browse, contact, link up, voila! The way Pro Tools seamlessly integrates between two locations is no doubt the future that is here upon us now. I cannot see how any DAW will not have to keep pace with this. This is not about love for Avid so don;t attack me fan boys. This is about cutting edge developments and I don;t care which company is at the vanguard. Seamless DAW integration with a world wide artist community, is it Next big thing? I think so!

[Robert Randolph]

So I'm going through the troubleshooting forum to track down already reported issues for the new bugtracking thread.

I'm having difficult reproducing this issue. Can you perhaps walk me through making a project that causes this to happen, or send me a simple project where it happens?

[toodamnhip]

So I'm going through the troubleshooting forum to track down already reported issues for the new bugtracking thread.

I'm having difficult reproducing this issue. Can you perhaps walk me through making a project that causes this to happen, or send me a simple project where it happens?

You might not be able to duplicate this issue. It happened when the file started in 9, got really large. After awhile, more and more plug ins had errors chasing automation correctly. It seemed like I kind of hit some sort of wall. I thought it might have to do with too many un-dos and 1st tried eliminating undo history. That didn’t fix it. You’d play a section one time and EQs would fail to turn on etc, the next time they would. Or plug ins would fail to switch to new setting from section to section, etc. But it happened all the time, everywhere! It was clearly a scenario wherein DP just could;t keep up after it had been keeping up before. I tried undoing back in time to BEFORE the issue started..nope..no fix. I have a 12 core so it was;t really computer memory. I am on a new project now and have not had such a large file since. I cant send you the file due to legal issues with the record company. Not sure what else to say except changing to DP 8 solved the issues 100% with the only error being weird graphic re draws of audio files for a bit the 1st time I changed to 8. Crazy eh? I tried various other fixes like rebuilding into a clean, new file. Re- installing Waves and Dp. etc...Only changing to 8 worked. And worked every time.
By the way, as to these type of tough to replicate issue, You know, you might also want to have a WATCH LIST section called “unverified” where you put in clearly reported issues and ask for others to watch for those issues. It is pretty clear to me that after all the file rebuilding and re installation, having DP 8 NEVER fail on that mix shows something is wrong with 9 when a file gets really big. How big?And At what point does failure begin? VERY VERY hard to determine.

[Robert Randolph]

There is a tag of [Verification In Progress] .

At this point I personally can't add an entry for it since I don't understand it very well.

You're free to add an entry though obviously! I don't need to understand the issue to categorize it and monitor responses.

[Timeline]

I don't know if I will ever leave DP 8.07. If large files cause issues buffers cannot eliminate, I'm not down with this. I would like to hear MOTU's explanation and remedy or claim it will be fixed in a release sooner than later.