Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

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Topo
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by Topo »

Yeah, it's really buggy...I'm trying to make sense of it too..it doesn't react stably with the grid off or command key..I talked with MOTU this morning and walked one of their techs thru it. He tried DP7 while we were talking and saw that it works smoothly, but then he tried DP8 and said it looked ok, but I tried 8 and 9 and it's the same. I hope hope hope they will realize it's a problem and fix it. SO annoying, since it used to work like a charm.
leigh wrote:Feh!!! Not working!

I'm more confused now because now it's not working regardless of the grid snap setting.

I'll keep plugging away for a bit longer but if I can't get it to work, then I'll file at TechLink, too.
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leigh
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by leigh »

Are you also noticing that if you click on a line with the Arrow tool, the created point jumps to the right and is not added where you click?

Also: It jumps to left sometimes, too.
I don't care what you play. I care how you play.— Karl Berger

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leigh
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by leigh »

I'm glad you talked with them. I'll file a TechLink, too, so they'll know other people are having the problem as well.
I don't care what you play. I care how you play.— Karl Berger

iMac Pro 3 GHz 10-Core Intel Xeon W, 128GB RAM, Mac OS X 14.2, DP 11.3
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leigh
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by leigh »

Just filed the TechLink.

Let's hope they can include the fix in 9.02.
I don't care what you play. I care how you play.— Karl Berger

iMac Pro 3 GHz 10-Core Intel Xeon W, 128GB RAM, Mac OS X 14.2, DP 11.3
VSL, VE Pro 7, MIR Pro 3D, UVI Falcon, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer, Ozone 9 Advanced, RX 8 Advanced, Dorico 5, Metric Halo ULN-8-3D mkiv, ULN-2-3D & 2882-3D interfaces, Novation Impulse-49, various mics
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Topo
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by Topo »

Yeah....that's what they need to hear...that others are having the issue. I've seen the other thing you mentioned too. All sorts of weirdness.....if I try to select a point and delete it, it won't delete, but adds another point next the the one already there. I really do hope they address this.
leigh wrote:I'm glad you talked with them. I'll file a TechLink, too, so they'll know other people are having the problem as well.
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leigh
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by leigh »

Topo wrote:All sorts of weirdness.....if I try to select a point and delete it, it won't delete, but adds another point next the the one already there.
I've been frustrated by this, too.

I'm glad you made your original post because it got me to post the TechLink.

**Leigh

PS: Thank you again, James, for providing MOTUNation.
I don't care what you play. I care how you play.— Karl Berger

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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by bayswater »

When DP 9 was first released there were a number of long threads about bugs in the automation lanes. What I remember about them is that not everyone experienced the same bugs although I think everyone experienced at least one of them.

Did you try the pencil tool? With Insert set to Volume? I just tried it again, and I get consistent accurate volume info with it, and not with the other tools.
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
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leigh
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by leigh »

This is still broken in 9.02.
I don't care what you play. I care how you play.— Karl Berger

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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by bayswater »

I was just going to say that it's working fine here. One thing that still seems odd: if you drag one automation point past another, then drag it back in the opposite direction, the point previously covered reappears and you may get the vertical ramp. But if you do the same, but release the mouse before dragging back in the opposite direction, the covered point is erased and the ramps are redrawn correctly.

With 9.02, other than the above, I'm seeing the now work with the pencil or the selection tool. As with previous versions, some automation data has to be inserted before any editing works.
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Topo
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by Topo »

leigh wrote:This is still broken in 9.02.
Bummer....I just noticed 9.02 was released and had some hopes. I don't get that it's working for the other poster here. How can that be? It's so broken. I sent a video to motu showing the problem. I'll just keep doing that to make sure they know it's a problem.
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Shooshie
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by Shooshie »

I'm short on time, and I've admittedly only scanned the topic. What I see in a screenshot up the way is "Controller 25," and you're calling it "automation." MIDI Controllers and automation work differently. If you want a ramp with a MIDI controller, you have to draw it by adding points, or by using Lines mode and letting DP add the points automatically.

There's a post on page 2 of the tips sheet called Control point editing in DP's MIDI Edit Window. See if it explains some of the anomalies you're seeing. Specifically, the apparent "sudden drop." That's just the way MIDI works. Real automation data works with ramps. MIDI only simulates ramps with stair steps.

Using Lines mode, you can create a simulated ramp easily by starting with a point next to the starting point of the ramp, then drag it away from the starting point in two dimensions: time and value. If you click too far from the starting point before dragging, you'll only get a giant stair-step.

So, is what I've said something you're already aware of, and is DP 9.01 not behaving this way anymore? I really don't have time to go test it right now, but this has come up many times in the past, and I've tried to explain it the best I can. Sometimes folks get it, sometimes not. But if this is a whole different behavior, let me know. I'll test it soon as I can, but it may be a week or so.

Shooshie
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Topo
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by Topo »

Hi...the point is; this has worked differently, and flawlessly in DP7 for years. A beautiful feature that allowed setting points and dragging them to get ramps in between. They *never* created right angles. If it was a modification, starting at DP8, it's a very enormous step backwards. It causes, what used to take seconds, several minutes, and still does not work correctly. It's very buggy. Try to delete a point, and sometimes it creates 2 point instead. Many times it's impossible to even add a single point. Try to move a point and it randomly draws a right angle.

I've done a sample screen movie of the problems here. You can see the feature is quite unusable. It is almost impossible to actually add points. When it *does* add, it creates 2 points. Trying to delete, it simply moves the point up and does not delete it. Tried it with Snap on or off. Tried adding and deleting holding command key or not. When I finally get a point to drag, it will ramp on one side, and not the other, but, then letting go, it creates a box...no ramp. As mentioned, DP7 worked wonderfully...set a few points and drag them wherever, and it all just worked.

https://youtu.be/Bl85bbhStzU


Shooshie wrote:I'm short on time, and I've admittedly only scanned the topic. What I see in a screenshot up the way is "Controller 25," and you're calling it "automation." MIDI Controllers and automation work differently. If you want a ramp with a MIDI controller, you have to draw it by adding points, or by using Lines mode and letting DP add the points automatically.

There's a post on page 2 of the tips sheet called Control point editing in DP's MIDI Edit Window. See if it explains some of the anomalies you're seeing. Specifically, the apparent "sudden drop." That's just the way MIDI works. Real automation data works with ramps. MIDI only simulates ramps with stair steps.

Using Lines mode, you can create a simulated ramp easily by starting with a point next to the starting point of the ramp, then drag it away from the starting point in two dimensions: time and value. If you click too far from the starting point before dragging, you'll only get a giant stair-step.

So, is what I've said something you're already aware of, and is DP 9.01 not behaving this way anymore? I really don't have time to go test it right now, but this has come up many times in the past, and I've tried to explain it the best I can. Sometimes folks get it, sometimes not. But if this is a whole different behavior, let me know. I'll test it soon as I can, but it may be a week or so.

Shooshie
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leigh
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by leigh »

Topo wrote:I've done a sample screen movie of the problems here. You can see the feature is quite unusable. It is almost impossible to actually add points. When it *does* add, it creates 2 points. Trying to delete, it simply moves the point up and does not delete it. Tried it with Snap on or off. Tried adding and deleting holding command key or not. When I finally get a point to drag, it will ramp on one side, and not the other, but, then letting go, it creates a box...no ramp. As mentioned, DP7 worked wonderfully...set a few points and drag them wherever, and it all just worked.

https://youtu.be/Bl85bbhStzU
Topo, your video shows exactly what I've been struggling with, too.
I don't care what you play. I care how you play.— Karl Berger

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VSL, VE Pro 7, MIR Pro 3D, UVI Falcon, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer, Ozone 9 Advanced, RX 8 Advanced, Dorico 5, Metric Halo ULN-8-3D mkiv, ULN-2-3D & 2882-3D interfaces, Novation Impulse-49, various mics
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by Shooshie »

Sadly, I've confirmed a bug, or a series of bugs, in the way Lines Mode is working for MIDI Controllers in both the Sequence Editor and the MIDI Editor. Perhaps other editors, too; I haven't tested it elsewhere. (Does lines mode exist in any other editors? Of course it does... Drum and Notation, at least.)

Sequence Editor:
• First, the control points are very sensitive to the grid, so you have to either shut off the grid or hold down the Command Key to be able to click and/or drag a control point to where you want it. That may be a good thing, if the rest of it works properly. But...
• INTERMITTENTLY, but rarely working correctly, inserting a point and dragging will cause another point to be inserted as well, very close to the one you just inserted, acting as the stationary vertex of the angle you just made. This may look vertical, but in my experience it was never actually a vertical line, but a near-vertical line to the odd 2nd-point that was created when I started dragging. The behavior is exhibited in Topo's video.
• Holding down OPTION to copy a point does not work properly. Of course, it's not really necessary to copy points in Lines Mode, but the feature should work consistently.
• In the MIDI Edit Window, when raising or lowering a point between two other points, the trailing ramp is always a square. It should be an angle like the forward ramp.
Deletion of a point merely creates new points on either side of the deleted control point. It is supposed to free the line to snap straight between the previous and next VISIBLE point. Not between the actual underlying MIDI events. Those MIDI events are supposed to be adjusted to fit the new line. There's not a lot of reason to use Lines Mode if you can't create or delete a point without new (unintended) points being created.

I may not be listing all the subtleties of this new behavior, but I think once Michael or whoever works on that gets into it, they'll surely find the source of all the problems and fix them back the way they are supposed to work. Lines Mode is a shortcut for working with thousands of MIDI Controller events. It's got to work as if those events aren't there, while creating or deleting them invisibly behind the scenes.

I hope this gets fixed as quickly as the Movie window got fixed. This is a pretty severe bug for those who work in MIDI.

Shooshie
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Re: Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

Post by Shooshie »

By the way, in case the programmer does not realize how this behavior is supposed to work, Lines Mode in MIDI Continuous Data is supposed to mimic the way automation lines are drawn in audio and aux tracks. It fills in the actual MIDI events and values, invisibly between the control points in the Lines. If you change continuous data modes to Points or Bars, the actual events appear, but Lines Mode is a short cut to make it easy to shape thousands of points with only a simple stroke.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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