Help showing automation on a MIDI track!

[Shooshie]

Just to allay any confusion, let me add a couple [verbal] points:

First of all, automation and MIDI behave in different ways.
Continuous controllers are actually a series of events with rising or falling values, and those values remain flat between events, creating what we call "stair-stepping." Some operations may generate a zipper effect, as controllers rip through the 128 possible values, clearly audible in some exposed cases.

Automation, which occurs in audio and aux tracks, behaves more like vectors, where values continue to rise or fall as time moves forward. One does not hear stair stepping in automation, but in MIDI stair-stepping is almost unavoidable.

MIDI continuous data can be made smoother by changing the Event Density in the Preferences/Editing/Continuous Data panel. However, there are natural limits, even with data as close together as possible, because there are only 128 values. Audio automation does not suffer from this limitation.

Because of these differences in behaviors, people often think their "MIDI Automation" is not working properly, since continuous data stair-steps can sometimes resemble El Capitan (the cliff in Yosemite National Park, not the operating system or the passenger train), with giant drop-offs. It's just a matter of how you place your data, and how dense it is, along with the speed of the passage. It is sometimes hard to explain to people why this is not a bug. "But MIDI and audio automation should behave exactly the same way!!!" Yes, it would be nice, but... MIDI has 128 possible values unless you can use two controllers in tandem, one coarse and the other fine, to enhance each other's values. When that is possible, there are 16,384 values. The only MIDI control that uses that, with all manufacturers supporting it, is Pitch Bend. It's sad that we can't have it on all controllers, but them's the breaks. Anyway, experienced MIDI performers and engineers know that MIDI and audio are different, and they understand why this is what we're all forced to work with for now.

So, when we speak of this set of bugs in MIDI controller Lines Mode, this is NOT what we are talking about. At first, you may think that's what is happening, but continued exploration will prove otherwise.

Shooshie

[Topo]

Sadly, I've confirmed a bug, or a series of bugs, in the way Lines Mode is working for MIDI Controllers in both the Sequence Editor and the MIDI Editor. Perhaps other editors, too.............


Shooshie

Great to hear you've confirmed it. How does this get brought to the attention of engineering? And how does it get a tier 1 status for fixing? My tech link still shows "unread".

[Shooshie]

Great to hear you've confirmed it. How does this get brought to the attention of engineering? And how does it get a tier 1 status for fixing? My tech link still shows "unread".

We all have to send this to MOTU. You can refer them to the specific posts which tell the story about the bug, rather than the entire thread. The more concise and to the point, the easier for them and the faster the route to repair.

It may be best to call Tech Support and get a technician to see it for him/herself. We just stay with it until someone duplicates it and says "yeah, that's gotta be fixed." Takes time and sometimes patience.

Shooshie

[leigh]

Topo, if you speak to MOTU, feel free to remind them that I also submitted a TechLink which is also still unread.

Thanks for looking at this, Shooshie, and for the reminders on the differences between MIDI and audio automation.

[Shooshie]

Well, guys, I just dialed MOTU Tech Support 168 times (aren't iPhones fun?), and got a busy signal each time. Finally, at 5:00 central time (6:00 their time), I got the recording telling me they had closed. I thought they had put in a rotary system so that you could get in a queue and wait. It's been a long time since I got a busy signal at MOTU! But I'm used to it. For 30 years, I've exercised "redial" on the old push-button phones. I've even called them on rotary phones from some locations! Persistence always got me through, but today I was just too late.

I'll resume tomorrow if I get the chance, but I am supposed to be somewhere tomorrow, so I don't know if I'll be able to do it. Maybe someone else will pick up the baton and run with it.

Early mornings are the best time.

Shooshie

[leigh]

My TechLink response:

Hi Leigh,

Thanks for submitting this feedback. This matter has been presented to the Development Team to be addressed in future releases. Please let me know if I can help with anything else.

Thank you,
Brian

[Topo]

My TechLink response:

Hi Leigh,

Thanks for submitting this feedback. This matter has been presented to the Development Team to be addressed in future releases. Please let me know if I can help with anything else.

Thank you,
Brian

OK..cool Leigh.....I submitted more info on my tech link, with the stuff that Shooshie reported. Andrew (motu tech) had told me to try the reshape tool, but that's just another chase down the rabbit hole. Maybe with enough people complaining, it will get addressed soon.

[musicman691]

Sadly, I've confirmed a bug, or a series of bugs, in the way Lines Mode is working for MIDI Controllers in both the Sequence Editor and the MIDI Editor. Perhaps other editors, too; I haven't tested it elsewhere. (Does lines mode exist in any other editors? Of course it does... Drum and Notation, at least.)

Sequence Editor:
• First, the control points are very sensitive to the grid, so you have to either shut off the grid or hold down the Command Key to be able to click and/or drag a control point to where you want it. That may be a good thing, if the rest of it works properly. But...
• INTERMITTENTLY, but rarely working correctly, inserting a point and dragging will cause another point to be inserted as well, very close to the one you just inserted, acting as the stationary vertex of the angle you just made. This may look vertical, but in my experience it was never actually a vertical line, but a near-vertical line to the odd 2nd-point that was created when I started dragging. The behavior is exhibited in Topo's video.
• Holding down OPTION to copy a point does not work properly. Of course, it's not really necessary to copy points in Lines Mode, but the feature should work consistently.
• In the MIDI Edit Window, when raising or lowering a point between two other points, the trailing ramp is always a square. It should be an angle like the forward ramp.
• Deletion of a point merely creates new points on either side of the deleted control point. It is supposed to free the line to snap straight between the previous and next VISIBLE point. Not between the actual underlying MIDI events. Those MIDI events are supposed to be adjusted to fit the new line. There's not a lot of reason to use Lines Mode if you can't create or delete a point without new (unintended) points being created.

I may not be listing all the subtleties of this new behavior, but I think once Michael or whoever works on that gets into it, they'll surely find the source of all the problems and fix them back the way they are supposed to work. Lines Mode is a shortcut for working with thousands of MIDI Controller events. It's got to work as if those events aren't there, while creating or deleting them invisibly behind the scenes.

I hope this gets fixed as quickly as the Movie window got fixed. This is a pretty severe bug for those who work in MIDI.

Shooshie

First saw this in 9.01 and 9.02 has it as well? Not cool as a lot of my work is with MIDI.

[labman]

I sent in a note to motu on this. It is horrible for me in scoring. Might I suggest everyone either create a touchtone and/or call them.

Shooshies post sums it up superbly.

[Shooshie]

I submitted a tech link before I went out of town last Friday. I haven't been able to post the results of that, having limited, sporadic internet connection on an iPhone while I was away. They said it's been reported by a number of people now, and while Brian didn't specifically say it's on the docket, he implied that it's in the hands of the programmers. I think it will be fixed. I tried to convey the sense of urgency that we all feel, and I think he got it.

Lines Mode is one of the many "greatest" things about DP. It almost makes MIDI continuous data behave like vector ramps. Nothing comes close to the ease and speed of editing this way. Of course, if you need more complicated curves and shapes, the Reshape Tool is profound. But they are for different purposes, each providing speed and power at edits of their respective specialties. I hope our friends at MOTU understand the significance of that. Actually, I think they do.

Shooshie

[labman]

I called them about this monday Shoosh. They have seen this thread and say they will study.

[Mister Zero]

I called them about this monday Shoosh. They have seen this thread and say they will study.

I am happy to see someone else has this issue. I'm not big on dissing MOTU or any company, but this is one big thorn in my side.

I've had the problem for YEARS. I tried the DP9 demo and the problem persists. I think MOTU does not have the resources available to look into it OR fix it.

Here is my last communication with Nicole (from early 2013). Be sure to watch the video, because those who have been experiencing the issue will find it very familiar...

-------------------------

On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:58 PM, Mister Zero wrote:

Hi Nicole -

As we discussed Friday, I have created a video for you to watch so you can see the issues I'm having with the lines view for controllers in the MIDI window.

Here is a link to the video:

http://screencast.com/t/naRX6mHK

Hopefully you can replicate the issue.

Maybe I'm being too finicky, but some of the parts I've been working on require greater accuracy for controllers than I can achieve using the lines view. Usually I go to the Event window to fix things, but it would be great if I could use lines view.

Thanks for your help.

----------------

And the reply:

Well, there are a few things we'd like to look into:

First, in your video, there are some points that have ramping between points, and some points which have "corners". The corners are how raw MIDI data is actually recorded. The ramp effect visually looks like a ramp but, under the hood, DP is plotting several points from one "point" to another, to create the "ramping" effect. So, we will look into why some are ramping and others are cornering.

Second, I'm not sure why there are multiple points being created when you are trying to move a singular point. This should not happen. Please be sure to check your Option key on the keyboard (sometimes if this is stuck or accidentally hit, it can create a "copy" effect). However, when this happens, instead of dragging the point on top of another one, please try simply highlighting it and pressing "Delete" to delete the point. I am wondering if the previous point (which will not sit directly on the bar line) is moving over because of some behavior caused by two events overlapping each other exactly. This SHOULD not happen, but it is a hunch (as the offset behavior seems to get worse as more points are created).

Thank you and I'll let you know what we find out. If you have DP 7.24, it would be helpful for us to know whether or not it also occurs in DP 7.24 (since you have the file in which this is happening, it may be accurate for you to test out)...

Best,

Nicole Equerme

----------------------

It should not happen, but it does. None of the suggestions helped. I eventually stopped getting replies from Nichole when I told her none of her suggestions worked. Oh well.

I've slowly migrated over to Logic and Ableton during the past 3 years because of this issue, and every time I work with controller data in either program I think about how badly MOTU implemented it, and their inability to locate and fix this lines view issue.

Maybe our grandchildren will see this fix. Very sorry.

[Shooshie]

That's a fascinating video, Mister Zero, and I don't mean that facetiously. I'm assuming you made that in 2013, when you were corresponding with Nicole at MOTU. I did not have that problem in DP in 2013. It has only recently happened to me, presumably with DP 9 or 9.01 or 9.02. Not sure when it DID start happening, but I've used lines mode a few times in the past year or so, and it worked as it always did. (I've worked in audio more lately than MIDI, which was my bread & butter for so many years)

Lines mode used to be one of the most refreshing things about DP. It worked as it should, and you could quickly create any kind of ramps with continuous data. As Nicole said, there were "corners" and "ramps," but it depended on where you clicked, whether you got a corner or a ramp. One would learn quickly to click a certain distance from one of your anchor points and drag it out into a ramp, or click further away and get a corner. Sometimes it seemed arbitrary, as if sometimes it worked right and sometimes it didn't quite, but I attributed that to my zoom level and just tried again. It ALWAYS worked, sometimes just more predictably than others. Never did anything like what I'm seeing in the video happen to me. (until very recently)

What I'm seeing in the video is that you obviously know what you're doing, and yet it is failing in a big way. This is what is happening to me NOW, as of probably the past 4 or 5 months. But in 2013 this never happened, and I've always kept DP up to date. So, the big question is WHY did this start happening to you in 2013, but did not happen to me until now? If we knew the answer to this, it might help with their efforts to fix it. But I haven't the slightest where to look for this answer, and there's no guarantee it will help anything even if we do find it. If you're interested in pursuing it, please tell us the version you were using at that time, along with the OS and drivers. Those should be listed on the Tech Link, if you still have access to it.

It's painful to think that you had to go to another app to keep working. DP's MIDI was always, IMO, second to none. I truly loved the way it was implemented, and enjoyed using it daily, immensely. When I edited MIDI for a client, I felt like a craftsman with fine tools who had put in the time to know them well. Now, I'm not getting that feeling. It's not just the MIDI Lines Mode. There are many bugs that are robbing me of time, convenience, and technique in my work. I've gone to using work-arounds until they get fixed. Some of those take me hours more than they should.

I'm still trusting one thing that always made DP the #1 DAW in my opinion — that MOTU will fix it and bring it to their high standards. I've used DP for almost 30 years, and for about 27 of those years, I could say honestly that it was trouble-free and a joy to work with. There were a few years during which I could not say that. Things happened. Stuff didn't work right. I would just continue to do my work the best i could, or occasionally go back to earlier versions that did work. Its MUCH harder to do that these days. Almost impossible without an incredible effort, unless you happen to have old OS setups stored on hard drives or back up drives somewhere. So I'm even more dependent on this one fact than ever before: MOTU eventually gets it all fixed. It may take some time, but it gets fixed. I'm not saying that every single feature is perfected and without flaw. I've never seen DP in a state of perfection. But it's always been good enough to get my work done while sometimes even feeling a state of awe at the greatness of this software. So, all I can say is that I believe it will be fixed.

If the culture at MOTU has changed to the point that DP does not regain its greatness, reliability, and solid operation, then an era will truly have passed. Let's not even entertain that possibility. DP is just a few years into a new programming environment (Cocoa) and 64 bit operation. After over 30 years, I presume that there have been some people who have retired from the programming team. New blood will learn to incorporate new ideas into the old culture and, I hope, develop methods of keeping DP at the highest standards. If not, it will collapse and fail, because people must go with what works, especially when money, reputation and deadlines are on the line. I see a lot of changes in DP. It has always been a standard bearer, which has been more important to me than many of the new features, but I'm happy to see those features. Now they just have to figure out how to get them into DP without breaking other things.

The next several months will be important ones to all of us who still use DP. I hope that when it's ready, it will be enough to bring back into the fold all those who felt like they had to leave to get their work done.

MOTU, if you're reading; we're counting on you. And I think most of us believe you will succeed.

Shooshie

PS: one technical issue I see in your video: the grid is on for the 8th note. Perhaps that explains why the point wouldn't move over? If you held down the Command Key, would it move and stay? Even so, it doesn't explain many other things, but I do see that one potential problem.

[Topo]

Yes...it's amazing too think that I have actually been looking at a replacement. After all the years of stable operation, something has changed. I will hope they have a maintenance release, asap. If not, I guess an era has come and gone....on to another DAW (

The next several months will be important ones to all of us who still use DP. I hope that when it's ready, it will be enough to bring back into the fold all those who felt like they had to leave to get their work done.

MOTU, if you're reading; we're counting on you. And I think most of us believe you will succeed.

Shooshie

PS: one technical issue I see in your video: the grid is on for the 8th note. Perhaps that explains why the point wouldn't move over? If you held down the Command Key, would it move and stay? Even so, it doesn't explain many other things, but I do see that one potential problem.

[mrgkeys]

Here's something weird... So I came to this thread looking for information about snapshot automation problems.. my snaps are not snapping for some tracks and working for others.. anyways.. I became fascinated by this, so I opened up a project that did not have any MIDI and added a track to see if I could replicate the problem.. in DP9.02 on 10.11.4. I inserted some Mod controller on a the track and I could NOT repeat this behavior.. I watched the videos and I knew what to look for, but it was fine for me. Not satisfied, I switched to MIDI Volume and I COULD replicate it. Using the filter at the bottom to just see one type of MIDI controller at a time. I switched back to the Mod data and it still worked perfectly. So I deleted the Mod data and switched back to MIDI Vol and it then worked perfectly!!! WTH? I deal so little with MIDI anymore, I'd never see this bug, but it's a weird one. I could never make the Mod controller behave badly. Using the pointer or the pencil tool.