Bugs - Old, but still active

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williemyers
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Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by williemyers »

Hi all...
I've written to MOTU today re: a bug that's been around for quite a few versions/years now and it got me to thinking - I wonder how many old, unresolved bugs are still lurking out there that MOTU's not addressed?
And I thought that it might be valuable for us (and for MOTU) to have a thread that listed a few. So please feel free to contribute. *OR*, if you've found a solution to something mentioned in this thread, definitely contribute!
I'm not talking about "features", now...I'm talking things that are busted and do not work!
I'll start off with this one:

I Techlinked this about 5-6 years ago, but no resolution. It has to do with editing tempi data in the Cond. Track Graphic window.

*IF* you have have set your initial tempo to have a beat value *other* than "1/4 note=", say such as "1/8th note =" or "dotted 1/4 =" and then go in to the Cond. Track Graphic window and use the pencil tool to create or edit tempi data, the resultant new data that DP creates will be "1/4 note =", making that new data useless. Say you've drawn a ritard. On playback, you'll definitely hear that something's out, but it's only when you open the Cond. Track MIDI Edit window that you'll see that all of the new values in that ritard are "1/4 note =". And that's why it so0unds wrong....because it is!

Anyway, if you're not one who uses a lot of varying tempi in the conductor track, it's probably not going to effect you. But iof you're scoring to picture, it's worth watching out for.
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Shooshie
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by Shooshie »

Custom Consoles:
General bugginess. Lots of symptoms. I can't remember them all to describe them, but it's hard to get a complicated console to perform correctly, and then to stay put.

Tap Tempo:
May work moderately well on new files (not sure about that), but for many generations of DP, it has not functioned well at all. I've written many reports on it, so I don't expect results anymore, but it used to be one of the most important functions in DP, and one of the best. Still is important. Why not fix it so that it works at 100%?
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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stubbsonic
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by stubbsonic »

There is a bug when when dragging selected notes in the MIDI graphic editor with grid snap on, where the editor refuses to let you drag to some specific grid point you want, it will snap before it, and after it, but it skips the desired on-grid drop point. Actually, it can and will drop the notes where you want them to go, but this is a matter of trust, because DP will not let you see them in the correct position before you release the mouse.

It has been this way since version 4.

This is part of the few things that have bugged me about the graphic editor since the old days. The other things that bug me aren't bugs.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

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stubbsonic
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by stubbsonic »

I hadn't noticed that tempo bug before, because I always ended up using a combo of Tap Tempo and option-drag to drag copies of tempo info (even in 12/8 or 5/8 or non-/4 meters).

But yea, they should fix that. Probably the easiest would be to add a preference "In conductor track, keep previous tempo basis" or something like that.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

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williemyers
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by williemyers »

Shooshie wrote:Custom Consoles:
General bugginess. Lots of symptoms. I can't remember them all to describe them, but it's hard to get a complicated console to perform correctly, and then to stay put.

Tap Tempo:
May work moderately well on new files (not sure about that), but for many generations of DP, it has not functioned well at all. I've written many reports on it, so I don't expect results anymore, but it used to be one of the most important functions in DP, and one of the best. Still is important. Why not fix it so that it works at 100%?
I would "+1" both of those, Shoosh... They're both such great features - pity they never completely lived up to their billing...
DP 9.52(OS 10.13.6), PTools 11.3.3, Sibelius 2021.12,
MacPro 5,1 mid-2010, 2 x 2.93Ghz 12 core, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 64 Gig RAM, 4 x >120G SSDs, 2 x 25" LCDs
couple o' hardware synths, loadza legal libraries
Kurz Midiboard, MOTU MTP AV

https://vimeo.com/71580152

"I always wanted to be a composer - and I am..."
"I never wanted to be a recording engineer - and I'm not..."

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Phil O
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by Phil O »

williemyers wrote:...*IF* you have have set your initial tempo to have a beat value *other* than "1/4 note=", say such as "1/8th note =" or "dotted 1/4 =" and then go in to the Cond. Track Graphic window and use the pencil tool to create or edit tempi data, the resultant new data that DP creates will be "1/4 note =", making that new data useless...
The problem here is the clunky way the controls of the conductor track work. Making a tempo change in conductor track responds to whatever the Insert Tempo is set to. That's right I said, "Set to." As far as I can tell this is a setting, not an "insert here" type of control. Go to Insert Tempo (left side of conductor track in SE) and set it to whatever value you would like for your beat (say half note) and all subsequent changes made with the pencil tool will be for half note values. I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure this is how this works. As for the other controls there, I'm still trying to figure them out.

Phil
DP 11.23, 2020 M1 Mac Mini [9,1] (16 Gig RAM), Mac Pro 3GHz 8 core [6,1] (16 Gig RAM), OS 14.3.1/11.6.2, Lynx Aurora (n) 8tb, MOTU 8pre-es, MOTU M6, MOTU 828, Apogee Rosetta 800, UAD-2 Satellite, a truckload of outboard gear and plug-ins, and a partridge in a pear tree.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by stubbsonic »

I just tested here by inserting a dotted quarter tempo on 1|1|000, and the pencil drew tempos with a d.q. basis. Worked as it should.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

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Shooshie
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by Shooshie »

williemyers wrote:
Shooshie wrote:Custom Consoles:
General bugginess. Lots of symptoms. I can't remember them all to describe them, but it's hard to get a complicated console to perform correctly, and then to stay put.

Tap Tempo:
May work moderately well on new files (not sure about that), but for many generations of DP, it has not functioned well at all. I've written many reports on it, so I don't expect results anymore, but it used to be one of the most important functions in DP, and one of the best. Still is important. Why not fix it so that it works at 100%?
I would "+1" both of those, Shoosh... They're both such great features - pity they never completely lived up to their billing...
Both of those actually worked well when they first came out. I used to use them both daily without worry. That was over 20 years ago. They worked pretty well into the early 2000s, though the Custom Consoles had become buggy during the creation phase. You saved often and rebooted when it crashed DP. Once made, they always worked. Tap Tempo didn't go until version 4.0 or thereabouts. It's never been quite right on OS X. Sometimes a workaround made it 100% usable. Sometimes it worked for simple songs. But classical stuff, with rubato and fermatas... not so much. Then it got better, then it got worse. I haven't tried it in DP9. Maybe they fixed it! (I am pretty sure that's not the case.) This is one of those things that's going to take all their attention for a while until they completely figure it out. I think the programmer "fixes it", then tries it out on a simple "Mary Had a Little Lamb" type song, and without putting it through the grueling paces of the real world of tempos, they proclaim it fixed. They also do not try it on existing files. It works better on newly created files, and hardly at all on old ones.

So, I've quit trying to work around with it. I proclaim it broken and in need of a genuine fix with REAL BETA TESTING, not the irresponsible crap I've been seeing get through that phase of the process!!!

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
williemyers
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by williemyers »

Phil O wrote:....Go to Insert Tempo (left side of conductor track in SE) and set it to whatever value you would like for your beat (say half note) and all subsequent changes made with the pencil tool will be for half note values. I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure this is how this works.
Phil
No, Phil, you are quite correct! That's a great solution and it does in fact work "as advertised" *in the SE window*. I should have been more specific in noting that I was initially speaking of the Conductor Track Graphic Editor window, which does not have a menu containing "Insert>Tempo Beat Value=" (afaik). I'll change my workflow to do all of my Cond. Track editing in the SE window, but I sure wish MOTU could just fix it in the Cond. Track Graphic Edit Window, where it should work as expected.
Last edited by williemyers on Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DP 9.52(OS 10.13.6), PTools 11.3.3, Sibelius 2021.12,
MacPro 5,1 mid-2010, 2 x 2.93Ghz 12 core, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 64 Gig RAM, 4 x >120G SSDs, 2 x 25" LCDs
couple o' hardware synths, loadza legal libraries
Kurz Midiboard, MOTU MTP AV

https://vimeo.com/71580152

"I always wanted to be a composer - and I am..."
"I never wanted to be a recording engineer - and I'm not..."

~me
williemyers
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by williemyers »

stubbsonic wrote:...yea, they should fix that. Probably the easiest would be to add a preference "In conductor track, keep previous tempo basis" or something like that.
I agree, stubb!
DP 9.52(OS 10.13.6), PTools 11.3.3, Sibelius 2021.12,
MacPro 5,1 mid-2010, 2 x 2.93Ghz 12 core, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 64 Gig RAM, 4 x >120G SSDs, 2 x 25" LCDs
couple o' hardware synths, loadza legal libraries
Kurz Midiboard, MOTU MTP AV

https://vimeo.com/71580152

"I always wanted to be a composer - and I am..."
"I never wanted to be a recording engineer - and I'm not..."

~me
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stubbsonic
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by stubbsonic »

I did the first insert in the Conductor Event List, after that, I did the pencil edits in the graphic editor and it worked properly.

Regarding Tap Tempo: like Shooshie, I remember a time when Tap Tempo was such an impressively responsive feature. I don't know of any other program that even came close. I imagine that with audio running there might be some special challenges. Folks can look for other threads about various workarounds to get it mostly working.

I gotta say the list of OLD BUGS is impressively small. Another area of the program that has been perhaps neglected is the Notation Editor (Shift-N) not to be confused with QS. It is still there. I never use it, but I know some people like working in that way. Is it buggy? Or just clunky?
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Shooshie
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by Shooshie »

stubbsonic wrote:Regarding Tap Tempo: like Shooshie, I remember a time when Tap Tempo was such an impressively responsive feature. I don't know of any other program that even came close. I imagine that with audio running there might be some special challenges. Folks can look for other threads about various workarounds to get it mostly working.

Yeah, it used to be amazing. You just gave me an idea. In all this time, I do not recall if I've ever tried Tap Tempo with MAS turned off. Maybe it would go back to its old responsive self if it wasn't trying to balance the audio.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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stubbsonic
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by stubbsonic »

Try that, coupled with setting the initial tempo slider to something quite high (400 BPM) before switching modes.
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Shooshie
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by Shooshie »

stubbsonic wrote:Try that, coupled with setting the initial tempo slider to something quite high (400 BPM) before switching modes.
That's the workaround I always used starting at about DP4.5. It worked fairly well, but never like the old days. Now it doesn't seem to make much difference. But I'll probably try it in conjunction with switching off MAS.

Shoosh
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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stubbsonic
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Re: Bugs - Old, but still active

Post by stubbsonic »

Here's a screen vid of one of the MIDI graphic editor bugs I mentioned:

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com/misc/EditBug.mov

Anyone else seeing this? It's been this way for a LONG time; at least since DP4.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
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