DP MIDI Plug Ins don’t automate...WHAT???? +other MIDI issue

[toodamnhip]

I think I’ve run into this before, and it always blows my mind when I realize that DP MIDI plug ins, such as “Quantize” etc, do NOT automate.

WHAT???

Why???????

Ah, I really think DP has sat on it’s laurels for too many yrs not REVISITING it’s MIDI.
(PS..thank you for MIDI mute..wonderful! But besides that....MIDI needs some new attention)

Yes. there are some AMAZING things about DP’s MIDI. Especially, under the hood and more subtle techniques such that Shooshie is always espousing.

But some things are just retarded.
For example, I am doing a drum track, and I figure out a wonderful swing value, ok, fine.
But then I do a fill and want that swing value OFF. Why can’t I bypass the quantize plug in? Just tell me why MOTU? Is this such a strange request?
And why can’t I automate swing % or even automate the BYPASS of swing completely?
Maybe I want verse 2 to NOT swing?
Yes, I know all the work-arounds...but why?
This never has made sense.
It also make ZERO sense that different projects do not hold their individual quantize settings, nor their “repeat” settings.
Why MOTU, would I want the 38% swing % on song A to be global so that when I go to RANDOM song B, it swings at 38%when I quantize?
And who here has set repeat to “splice”, gone to a new song, and totally Effed up their tracks when they realize the repeat is globalized/stuck on “splice” from the song worked on before, and you’ve just knocked subsequent MIDI 20 bars off time?...lol....cry cry cry
MOTU, let’s put our thinking caps on and update some blatant flaws in the MIDI..how bout it?

[James Steele]

Not everyone has your workflow, so that may not have anticipated this "need." I'd drop them a line and suggest some of these things.

[Robert Randolph]

Is there any other DAW that has automatable MIDI quantize plugins?

I know Sonar, Samplitude, Bitwig, Studio One and I'm fairly sure Logic doesn't (I just checked, maybe I'm missing some trick). Live can with a m4l addon, and a quick google search doesn't seem to show that Cubase does.

I'm not sure how reasonable it is to be upset about this when it doesn't appear to even be a commonly available feature.

[toodamnhip]

Well, to say that this isn’t a needed feature or my work flow is somehow special might be better looked at in the following light:
Why is ANYTHING auto-matable?
If the concept of being able to lock in a setting and then have it vary throughout a song is needed for audio, why would it not be needed for MIDI?
MIDI is basically the same as audio when it comes to our purposes, that being to CHANGE after any given initial setting.
My example already nailed it when I spoke about swing in a chorus and not in a verse, (bypass automation would solve that).
But there are so many ways this is needed.
How about MIDI time shift pushing a snare forward, backwards etc...OK, the quantize plug in does this, but again, ONE setting for the whole tune?
Come on man..you guys must get how this could EASILY different time shifs could be needed for different sections.
So what does one do? Made 3 or 4 duplicate MIDI tracks with different time shifts? That’s a hassle. For one thing, when more than one channel feeds the same MIDI part, and then you automate volume, it is a bit cumbersome to have that volume go to all duplicates. To avoid that, you need to triple MIDI parts AND MIDI playback channels..this eats memory unnecessarily. Don’t do this and It;s easy to have a fight between MIDI channels. Basically, this hugely lacking oversight of nO MIDI plug in automation just makes using MIDI plug ins cumbersome.
And again, why?....
Snares shift, hi hats swings, push and pull, pianos need to be quantized until a glissando...this isn;t rocket science. When that piano glissando happens, EVERYONE needs to bypass the quantize. OR, they have to burn in the MIDI effect, which is possible....but again..why don;t MIDI plugs just automate?.
It’s very clear to me that MIDI plugs often need to CHANGE settings throughout a song. There is nothing magic about what I do that makes my need esoteric. We all need it. If we all had it, we’d all USE it. for example, maybe many of use would start shifting snares in various sections to give a more realistic drum feel?..The uses are endless.

[Robert Randolph]

Let's look at this from an implementation standpoint, then subsequently a usability standpoint, then support.

Implementation:

To have automatable quantize, you need to be able to quantize things on the fly rather than quantizing them immediately after changing a setting. That means that you need a look-ahead that is AT LEAST the length of the quantize note value. Why do you need this? Because otherwise there's no way to shift notes backwards in time if they happen to late. You have to hold on to the MIDI stream for the time of the value of the note to make sure you see everything that happens in that window, then output the stream in a corrected form.

Now since this is live and automatable, you need to have a dynamic lookahead. This is required to account for changes in tempo, time signature and quantize value settings.

To have this dynamic lookahead, any change in settings that causes a lookahead change will possibly cause a gap in the stream. If you lengthen the lookahead, there is a buffer time where reading the new larger lookahead buffer occurs and nothing can be output. You will end up with at least a gap of new buffer - old buffer.

The other option is to have a very large lookahead that accounts for as many of these variables as possible.

Usability:

The lookahead required for this to work correctly means that if the quantize function is enabled on a track, there must be a delay between what you play and what you hear. You'll note that input quantize doesn't change what you play, but what is written, this is why.

Now every track that you use a quantize plug-in will either have a delay of the note value, which means everything played live is "off" by that amount when played life. It can be compensated for when playing back, just like plugins with delay can, but for live play back there will be a delay just like plugins with delay.

Now you need an option to disable the plugin on record, or for the user to remember to do this.

You also need to consider how this would work in conjunction with input quantize being turned on, of the various behaviours that could occur, which is the correct one?

Support:

What a nightmare this could be! Imagine troubleshooting a session where various MIDI tracks play back incorrectly, and different if you're live recording! What about trying to help troubleshoot a track where someone had input quantize on and a quantize plugin live? Then you have all the crazy things that people will attribute to incorrect operation that are simply a product of the plugin working correctly, such as not setting the start state for the plugin.

Now, I will say that I think the job of a support system is to help users understand and use advanced features. Implementing a feature should never be decided by how much trouble it causes for support, at least in the context of advanced and highly specialized software (like DP).

I am simply pointing out that this does add to the cost of adding the feature. You do have to pay your support team, and you do pay when customers stop using your software and posting ridiculous things on forums due to not being able to get proper support.

Conclusion:

This would be an awesome feature to have. I totally agree, and I only know what other DAWs have because this is a feature I myself really would like!

(Sidenote: I was recently auditioning Sonar as a DAW to use at a location where I only have access to Windows, and input quantize automation was literally the very first thing I looked for when I opened the trial!)

My point is that I think it's not reasonable to be upset about it not existing. It is a very difficult thing to implement correctly, difficult to use and likely more expensive than most people realize.

In the meantime, DP already has some of the most advanced project management features of ANY DAW out right now. You can utilize them to deal with these things in the meantime. As far as I see it, simply using the Takes and Folders features for different quantize values per section is just as easy as dealing with another automation lane.

[stubbsonic]

I've thought about this, too, and I think it was addressed in other threads, that it is not as simple as it may seem.

Say you have a process that makes a MIDI note play earlier than its designated time. You also have a bypass event at around that time. When the bypass is engaged, what if the earlier note has sounded, then bypass, then the original note appears in the stream. Messy.

One way MOTU developers could approach this is with a MIDI Track Freeze option. With this, you would set up your MIDI track with all the bypass & value automation that you want, then DP would calculate all the changes to the MIDI data off-line (i.e. as a freeze operation) then render the new track for playback. Then, if you make new edits to the track, you have to re-freeze. Seems like a reasonable compromise since it would in effect render all the edits to an invisible frozen track. It would eliminate some playback delays because it would just have the data already to go.

But even that solution doesn't eliminate some of the conflicts in timing that could occur where DP would have to guess what you want/meant.

[Robert Randolph]

Seems like what the OP really wants is non-destructive quantize, which would be nice. I don't think DP has that capability currently.

[bayswater]

To have automatable quantize, you need to be able to quantize things on the fly rather than quantizing them immediately after changing a setting. That means that you need a look-ahead that is AT LEAST the length of the quantize note value.

Some DAWs by having two timing stamps for MIDI events, one is the recorded time and the other is the quantized time. You would automate quantizing by toggling between the two. Yes, you might end up moving a note forward in time, and you have to take that into account with the timing of your automation event, but the timing of automation events is something you need to consider frequently, e.g., when to turn off reverb.

I think automating MIDI plugins is a reasonable thing to do. It fits with the general philosophy of treating MIDI and Audio the same way where possible, and generally increases flexibility of the application.

And, BTW, you can automate MIDI effects in Logic X. In the screenshot, the compression ratio for velocity is reduced. I don't know why you'd do this, but you can.

[Robert Randolph]

To have automatable quantize, you need to be able to quantize things on the fly rather than quantizing them immediately after changing a setting. That means that you need a look-ahead that is AT LEAST the length of the quantize note value.

Some DAWs by having two timing stamps for MIDI events, one is the recorded time and the other is the quantized time. You would automate quantizing by toggling between the two. Yes, you might end up moving a note forward in time, and you have to take that into account with the timing of your automation event, but the timing of automation events is something you need to consider frequently, e.g., when to turn off reverb.

I think automating MIDI plugins is a reasonable thing to do. It fits with the general philosophy of treating MIDI and Audio the same way where possible, and generally increases flexibility of the application.

I do think that they should be automateable for sure. Quantize is a tricky one though.

As I said though, the non-destructive quantize would help this whole issue a lot on it own, and that is something that IS common and should be expected for a modern DAW to have.

And, BTW, you can automate MIDI effects in Logic X. In the screenshot, the compression ratio for velocity is reduced. I don't know why you'd do this, but you can.

(snip for space)

I know you can automate some MIDI effects in Logic, you can automate some in other hosts as well. Quantize does not appear to be one of those.

[bayswater]

Quantize does not appear to be one of those.

I don't think Logic has a quantize plugin, But you could probably do it with meta events if you had the time and inclination.

[Tritonemusic]

This would be an awesome feature to have. I totally agree, and I only know what other DAWs have because this is a feature I myself really would like!

+1

[etl17]

Cubase / Nuendo had automatable (is this a proper word?) MIDI plugins forever....

[toodamnhip]

I appreciate all the thoughtful discussion.
Seems like some don’t think my complaint warrants being “upset” about this because it is “hard" to implement. I am sure it is hard, and a pain in the butt to boot!

We are all artists...and DP is our paint brush.

Some are less emotional and more accepting as to “reasons why” DP cannot do this or do that.

There are great artists of ALL temperaments, this is true. Some are more patient than I.

But there are many many great artists who scream like the dickens when they can’t get what they want!! THIS IS NOT UNCOMMON.
Being demanding works for me in my production life. I have had producers come to my studio and be blown away because they have finished 6 tracks in the time it takes me to finish one...but then say,”But damn your stuff is amazing”.....”I wish mine sounded like yours”. (Well, spend 3 months on ONE song and bash your head in a couple hundred times and so how your song sounds "speedy").

I have no patience for “reasons why” my favorite DAW does not have auto-matable MIDI..
I need it, I want it , and that’s it.
This is a reflection of my producer hat mentality. It works for VERY well for me. It is not always fun though, and, if ever it rubs members here the wrong way, it is not personal...
I never want to personally rub anyone the wrong way here as you are all great. So just understand that any emotion I have is a reflection of the demanding nature I have for myself, and my art. (And this is not meant as a slight to any of you out there and your art, it is my own viewpoint).

I am glad that at least a few others share the desire for this MIDI improvement.
I value this forum and where my intolerant production desires seem harsh, hopefully this little post provides insight.

I do try to keep the emotion down though, as I realize others have to co exist here....lol...but sometimes I let a bit of hyperbole out to at least TRY to make a point....
I want DP to be GREAT. or...GREATER...as do all of us! DP is supposed to CONTINUALLY have the most AMAZING MIDI out there. Rest too long and second place is soon yours!

[Robert Randolph]

Cubase / Nuendo had automatable (is this a proper word?) MIDI plugins forever....

Can you automate quantize though? That was the corner point of my post.

[toodamnhip]

I would add that MIDI automation can be gradually implemented. For example, the thing that started this whole thing was DP’s INABILITY to bypass a quantize effect. OK, come on, no bypass?
So how about just designing BYPASS as step one?
Better than nothing right?
Maybe SOME automation would be very hard to program and somehow not worth it. But this is something that should be started by MOTU, and gradually they can improve it by implementing more and more capability.
I’ll take what I can get at this point. “Nothing”, absolutely NO automation is where we start from.

And again, it sure would be nice to DE-Globalize “repeat", "input quantize", and a few other functions which are almost always “project specific”...and have no business being global. Or, at least make “globalize” a user definable preference.

MOTU is starting to “get it”. For example, on the opposite end of the spectrum, they have indeed Globalized something I have wanted for a long time. “Fade” settings.
It used to suck to have to re-instruct DP as to how I like my fades on every project. This stuff is a bit complicated isn’t it?...lol...Globalize this, don’t globalize that....
It’s ok MOTU, just ask ME...I have all the answers.....