Not understanding why so many VI's go to max volume now

[mhschmieder]

I've wasted too much time experimenting with different combinations of preferences to get at the heart of a problem I have faced since December or so, which doesn't always bite but is quite insistent when it does.

It started with certain Kontakt libraries going to max volume upon starting the recording of the associated audio track, even before hitting the first MIDI note and/or controller message.

Someone here was helpful in explaining how Kontakt libraries have a specific place to look for ignoring pan and volume settings, which I had only noticed previously in Sample Modeling's libraries and didn't notice is not always exposed the same way by every library but nevertheless is consistently handled once it is found in the GUI (it must be Kontakt script-based, and is not able to be set global to Kontakt as far as I can tell).

I've been bitten by other vI's in the meantime, but have always found and documented a solution. So I thought maybe it wasn't a DP8 update issue after all, but now I think it might be, and that something changed that means I need to find some unintuitive setting that I have never previously needed to do anything with (or which I did a "set and forget" to years ago but has now changed its default in recent DP updates).

Anyway, recently I updated Engine from Best Service (via Yellow Tools and Magix) as it had an update and as I just upgraded the ERA II library and wanted to retrace some bagpipe parts.

Unfortunately, even if I delete my MIDI CC's and explicitly set the volume in the library's main editing page inside ENGINE< it goes to max volume and thus clips horribly so is unusable.

I can find NOTHING in the ENGINE interface to set handling of PAN, VOLUME, etc., so suspect this needs to be dealt with inside DP somewhere. And as this problem keeps coming up in different VI's these past few months, for the first time in all my years of using DP, I am more inclined to think this is a DP issue or setting vs. anything much to do with recent updates to Kontakt, ENGINE< and whichever other VI's have caused me this problem (I can't remember at the moment which ones).

[monkey man]

Is "automation mode" unintuitive enough, Mark?

[Shooshie]

Is it possible that you inadvertently assigned Velocity to control the volume knob by way of MIDI Learn? Or maybe some other controller... a pedal, or knob? It's very easy to assign controllers to the various knobs, sliders, and buttons in most VIs these days. Maybe it happened by accident.

Shoosh

[mhschmieder]

Yep; that was unintuitive for me, because I rarely use automation. Even after reading the whole chapter on it in the DP8 manual, I can't figure out why it would kick in here.

At any rate, disabling MIDI automation wasn't enough; I had to disable audio automation as well.

In fact, I never use audio automation as the few times I tried it were horribly unsuccessful in terms of using the lasso tool etc. (though years ago I got it to work once or twice). I occasionally use MIDI automation for special purposes, in small doses, but I'd have to revisit those projects to remember why that was the best or only way to deal with a particular project need.

As I don't have a control surface (i.e. mixer surface with HUI protocol or the like), I have found it more efficient and effective to split tracks and process differently along with byte gain than to use mix automation.

At any rate, this was an old project so apparently inherited some "new" settings when I reopened it. I generally turn mix automation off, until I need it.

Anyway, I still think it's weird that Audio Mix Automation On, in either Latch or Touch Mode, was causing ENGINE to slam my internal Volume setting in ERA II's Bagpipe patch from -6 dB to the maximum of +12 dB, the instant DP's start button was hit, before any MIDI data or CC's.

Of course, Audio Mix Automation wouldn't look at the MIDI anyway. And I never had this behavior with any VI until around December of last year. It still seems random in some ways (though always repeatable in the cases where it occurs), but I guess I'll just have to get more in the habit of always opening the Mix Automation Settings window every time I reopen a project.

The other main place where I've been having weirdness happen with volume, is in Spitfire Audio's libraries. I think maybe Orange Tree Samples as well, but I'd have to check to be sure.

[mhschmieder]

There may have been a contributing factor. It took awhile before I successfully triggered it with my Apple Magic Mouse, but each of the circular controls in the ERA II interface has a dedicated right-click menu that allows CC assignment and the like. I didn't bother turning it off now that I've disabled Mix Automation, but I suspect this was the main culprit and why I got different behavior than with ERA I.

I really don't like how ENGINE prevents precise editing of values. You have to use the mouse to move the control, and it's very jumpy. Even a modifier key doesn't give you fine level control. I like very detailed control over volume settings in particular. Strangely, the Pro Edit tab does not duplicate ANY of the parameters on the Quick Edit page. It has a great sound engine and might be better than Kontakt, but I really dislike its lack of direct control over editing parameters.

[monkey man]

I meant latch / overwrite or whatever, the audio automation settings. I suspect you might have been able to get away with simply changing the mode, as I suggested. It may be that only one of them doesn't produce this effect, and that'd be the one you want.

Funny, I thought, "unintuitive", at your prompt, and right away this popped into my head. It's as if my brain took a bunch of factors into account, computed this possibility, and shunted it to my consciousness without explanation. It popped into my head so clearly and quickly I actually felt confident in posting what I did in the manner I did. Kinda bizarre.

At any rate, Mark, honoured to have (it seems, if I understand your explanation... which I don't) been able to help out in some small way, bro'.

[mhschmieder]

It's been a long, hard slog at work this week. I already knew that, but I know it's time to check out when I read one of your simian missives and think you're saying something "pooped" into your head.

Yeah, I initially thought you meant automation mode settings for audio, and it was surprising that the faulty track was in a different mode than the others, but that turned out not to be the issue (though it probably didn't help). MIDI automation was at fault. Still not sure where the MIDI itself is coming from that fouled things up, but it likely had more to do with ENGINE's settings, and I'm not eager to dig into their user manual due to how much is on my plate.

It's just one more thing to have to be concerned about, is all. I try to be hyper-efficient in everything I do in life as I always have too much on my plate. This is going to slow me down going forward, but soon enough I'll be checking and setting all the mix automation parameters (or disabling it) without even thinking about it.

[mhschmieder]

I am finding that I have to consistently take one additional step, besides disabling automation under the global automation settings, to keep VI's from going to full-blast volume and digital clipping.

Each MIDI track I am to render, must be individually selected under Track Automation Configuration in the Track drop-list, and had its Enable Automation Types set to "Only" vs. the default of "All", with a blank list so that it is effectively "None".

I am, however, starting to get more suspicious of the two checkboxes under "Automation Preferences" which are now selected by default. One says Overwrite Mode changes to Touch after pass, and the other says Solo & Play Phrase override mute automation.

Even after reading the user manual, I don't quite understand much of that, so left it as-is, but possibly it is the main instigator of my problems with MIDI recordings these past few months (bearing in mind that I didn't do much MIDI from November through March due to being primarily focused on recording a local band live in the studio).

[monkey man]

"Pooped" into my head! LOL I really missed a trick there, Mark; good catch, mate.

I'll just stick to my line seeing as it's all I've got:
Automation mode, mate, automation mode...

[kelldammit]

i've had this happen from time to time, and it had to do with the MIDI fader/automation. have you tried unassigning cc7 either from the MIDI fader or in the plugin?

[kelldammit]

I wish I could remember exactly what the fix was for me, it may also have had to do with automation read being enabled, but no automation being written.

[mhschmieder]

Well, I think some of it has to do with changes in various samplers over the past year, such that defaults are changing and/or features are growing and changing. So it may well have nothing to do with DP, that behavior has changed in projects that I open for the first time in a few months. I just haven't figured out the best way to take care of this yet in some of the plug-ins and/or libraries. In Kontakt it is inconsistent but is easy as we know exactly what to look for.

I'm opening up DP shortly, after a late dinner. I can't figure out what you mean by the MIDI fader without DP open, so will see if I can figure it out at that point and see if there is something to assign or unassign that I haven't noticed.

Of course, with no controller attached and no MIDI CC's, it's still rather strange to get a volume event! I'm even wondering if something like Arturia's various MIDI Control Center and Spark apps are at fault. They behave inconsistently when I bring them up, and it wouldn't surprise me if they are doing something in the background, now that their drivers are installed.

[jimmy330]

I am suddenly (over night) having the same full volume AND 12 o'clock panning problem. It happens on Kontakt, all Spectrasonics, MOTU synths, RealGuitar, but NOT Ivory or EZDrmmer. Those are the VI's I've tried so far. If you adjust your MIDI fader on DP's mixer the problem goes away, but since I've never touched a MIDI fader in all my years of working, I consider this a balky work around with no solution. This happens with no data input, and will trigger full vol & pan on whatever MIDI channel you change to, even with keyboard controller disabled. I'm using DP 9.01, but after reading that you use DP 8 (never happened to me in , I'm more confused than ever! Somebody from DP please jump in and help us figure this out. There are other threads that discuss this problem, with no solutions other than the one I mentioned earlier.

[Tonio]

Jimmy,
check out this thread.
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=60103

[HCMarkus]

Magic Dave was here not long ago:

In DP9, the Event Chasing preference has been changed to enable volume and pan to be sent from the mixer each time you press play. This happens whether you have volume and pan automation in the track or not. If you want to mix your VI instruments from within the VI, go to the DP Setup menu>Event Chasing, and disable CC#7 (volume) and CC#10 (Pan).