Markers and inserting measures...

[Michael Canavan]

OK working on a song, near completion, at this point I'm in one Sequence Chunk in DP, I realize I want to add a new part after Measure 31, say 12 bars.

I use markers to locate Verse, Chorus etc. parts in the song. This is natural in DP. Inserting measures via Project/Conductor Track/Insert Measures does not move the markers to the new location. The only way I've figured out at this point how to preserve marker relationships to track data is to:

1.Zoom in to that measure, DP cuts out odd measures like 31 unless zoomed in.
2. Select the marker to select all the data.
3. then select the Conductor Track measure to select the Marker itself as DP doesn't include the Marker in the selection when using the Marker to select.
4. hit Command-Shift-Return to select all data and Markers to the right on the timeline.
5. Then zoom out and carefully manually drag all of it over 12 bars.

Every other method I've tried has caveats, selecting via the Marker zoomed out then hitting Option-Shift-Return does not select the first Marker, so you still need to zoom in to select the Conductor Track so the Marker moves with the rest of the data.

As an example of how different DAWs can be, in Live this is literally a two step process:
1. Select measures from the start point you want empty measures created. (shift-left/right arrows extends your selection)
2. From the menu Create/Silence. Markers are moved with the data.


So am I missing something? IMO anyway it seems weird that Markers can't be directly tied to data since the only way to select the first one anyway is to use the Conductor Track. In other sequencers or DAWs, Markers move to the new locations of the data they're marking by default.
I'm glad a I found a solution, but I'm hoping it's a long arduous sludgy way, and someone can school me.

One good thing is learning new selection techniques from attempting to get this right though.

[Shooshie]

If you add measures while in the Conductor Track, will that do the trick?

[Shooshie]

Ok, I just tested this, because it just wasn't the way I remembered it. Here's what I found. I could insert measures in any window, as long as I deselected "Maintain all times following the insertion point," and it would move markers and everything.

If I selected "Maintain all times following the insertion point," it would add the measures, but it would renumber the whole song from bar 1 (or bar 0 in many of my songs). If I added a single measure at bar 9, Bar 0 would become Bar -1, but there would be an empty one-bar gap at Bar 9, as I had directed it to do.

If I did it the other way (deselect "Maintain all times following the insertion point"), then it would put the empty measure in the same place, but renumber everything FOLLOWING the insert, as it should. A marker at bar 25 would then be at bar 26.

This behavior worked in all edit windows, and I didn't have to specifically be in the Conductor track for it to work. If there is anything incorrect about it, maybe it's the fact that it's renumbering the measures from bar 1, instead of from the insert, when the checkbox is selected. But if that command is deselected, it correctly adds the bar and shifts the numbers AND markers to the correct place.

Personally, I think it's working correctly in both scenarios. If you maintain times after the insert, you want the bar numbers to be the same. The only way to do that is to shift the numbers of the whole song together so that the bar numbers BEFORE the insert are changed, but the bar numbers AFTER the insert remain the same. (which is what you told it to do)

Shooshie

[bayswater]

So am I missing something? IMO anyway it seems weird that Markers can't be directly tied to data since the only way to select the first one anyway is to use the Conductor Track. In other sequencers or DAWs, Markers move to the new locations of the data they're marking by default.

I tried it, and as you say, if you choose a range by clicking on the marker, then use Shift, or just drag the selection, the data move but not the marker. But if you select a range in the time line that starts with or contains the marker position, the marker moves too.

I don't expect selecting and moving data would move the markers in the range of the data moved, but it does seem a little odd that selecting the marker doesn't actually select the marker.

[Shooshie]

Maybe the difference is in how we are selecting the insertion point. I click the timeline (with the grid on) at the bar where I want the insert to take place. That's not a range selection, per-se, though it falls under the category of range selections. It's just a point on the timeline. Of course, it seems like that wouldn't matter since the insertion point is specified in the dialog box.

[Michael Canavan]

OK yeah, so it seems all markers move in my example with the Insert Measures Command except the one at the beginning of the measure you select? In this case the Marker for 31|1|000, the Measure selected to insert the measures at.... I neglected to notice that all the other markers to the right of measure 31 all moved.

So this breaks it down to just three steps, not too bad.

1. Select Project/Conductor Track/Insert Measures.
2. Select a measure and amount of measures then apply.
3. Move Marker for the Measure you selected to the new location.

Of course you can always just rename the old Marker for the new part and add a Marker for the old part. This begs the Question though as to why the first Marker does not get moved? I'm sure there's someone out there that prefers it this way, just glad to have a new keyboard command learned and a simpler method.

Oh right this is the 'criticism' section. This is a workaround Shooshie it will not do! MOTU must face!

[Michael Canavan]

I tried it, and as you say, if you choose a range by clicking on the marker, then use Shift, or just drag the selection, the data move but not the marker. But if you select a range in the time line that starts with or contains the marker position, the marker moves too.

I don't expect selecting and moving data would move the markers in the range of the data moved, but it does seem a little odd that selecting the marker doesn't actually select the marker.

Yeah I find that weird as well. If you use Markers to select all data in a section of time to the next Marker, the first Marker remains unselected, but holding Shift and selecting subsequent markers also selects the subsequent Markers themselves resulting in the same behavior more or less as the Insert Measures command. Though I can think of good reasons for not moving the first Marker when invoking the Insert Measure command, I can't think of a good reason for it not selecting the Marker when you double click the Marker itself to select a time range?

[Shooshie]

Ok, I apologize. I completely misunderstood your complaint. Now I realize that the whole problem you're having is that the marker at the insertion point doesn't move. The rest move fine. I thought your problem was with everything AFTER the insertion point. Yes, it stands to reason that if you're moving a whole section, you'd want the marker you're using for that section to move WITH that section. And no, it does not move. There is no way to make it move with the measure insertion; you have to edit it later.

I don't know why I didn't get the problem the first time I read your post(s). Sometimes words, meanings, or even one's current level of sleep deprivation or anxiety can be the source of complete misunderstandings.

Also, this is something I've done so many times I could do it without looking. And the way I move the marker (if I need to move it — sometimes I don't) is with the Marker Window. It's so easy. Just click on the bar, type in the new bar, hit return, and it's done. Yes, I suppose that's a "workaround" if you wanted the marker to move. For many of my insertions, I don't want the marker to move. So, it's got to be an option you click in the dialog. ("Include Marker at Insertion Point")

I never thought of it as a workaround, because it's a decision one has to make. If the only insertion you're doing is full sections, marker-to-marker, then it probably seems like a workaround. But if my marker moved, and I had to move it back, I'd call THAT a workaround. For the time being, I say it's a 50/50 thing. Sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't.

Until you get a fix for this, use the Marker Window to edit your markers. Fast and easy. No dragging. I leave Markers open all the time, because it's the fastest way to get around in a song.

Sorry I misunderstood your problem.

Shoosh

[daniel.sneed]

[...]I leave Markers open all the time, because it's the fastest way to get around in a song.[...]

So do I. Such a time saver.

[Michael Canavan]

@Shooshie,
I actually didn't notice that with the Insert Measure command from the Project menu moved all the Markers past the first measure. So you're not wrong in your assumptions.

I don't think it's much of a workaround to have to either move that first Marker or to rename it for your newly created blank measures, at least not in the command in consideration here. I do think it's odd that double clicking the Marker which selects all the data to the next Marker does not select that Marker??? Since we generally use Markers to mark a section of time and not just a place in time it would make sense if there was at least the option of selecting the Marker. As it stands the way to do it is to select the section in time on the Conductor Track after double clicking the Marker to select the rest of the time to the next Marker.... though I suspect this isn't the sort of feature that will get on MOTUs todo list anytime soon, and it's certainly not a deal killer.

It's also odd to me that the workaround for this isn't just selecting the Marker in the Markers Window? but probably because it's a separate window it deselects anything you've selected in the TO even with Shift held down.

[bayswater]

I do think it's odd that double clicking the Marker which selects all the data to the next Marker does not select that Marker??? Since we generally use Markers to mark a section of time and not just a place in time it would make sense if there was at least the option of selecting the Marker.

That too would be confusing. A preference that says "selecting a marker selects the marker"? You could argue that any other selection process should not select the market, but selecting with the marker should just select the marker too. Selecting a time range does select the marker, so why not?

[Michael Canavan]

I do think it's odd that double clicking the Marker which selects all the data to the next Marker does not select that Marker??? Since we generally use Markers to mark a section of time and not just a place in time it would make sense if there was at least the option of selecting the Marker.

That too would be confusing. A preference that says "selecting a marker selects the marker"? You could argue that any other selection process should not select the market, but selecting with the marker should just select the marker too. Selecting a time range does select the marker, so why not?

Agreed, I think you point out where it makes total sense for the behavior to be exactly the opposite of what it is now! Selecting a time range by double clicking the Marker should select the Marker, not selecting a time range selects the Marker.

The only reason for this is that as it stands selecting the Conductor track selects the marker. This behavior makes sense for sure, but it seems that the feature is more intuitive if you're using Markers for film cues and not for marking a particular phrase of music. <-- I guess that's where the difference in Marker use comes in and where MOTU have their hands filled trying to fulfill both needs.

[Shooshie]

It doesn't matter if you select all or nothing. The behavior is the same. It's the dialog that determines the insertion point; nothing else. The option needs to be on the dialog: "Marker at insertion point moves with data."

I was selecting things the first few times I tested it for this thread, but then realized that it wasn't necessary, and that normally I didn't select anything. So, I tried selecting all, and then selecting nothing. The result was the same. The only thing that changes anything is the option in the dialog to keep the numbering the same before or after the insertion point.

Shooshie

[Michael Canavan]

@ Shooshie I think we're getting lost in two distinct ways to move data, via the timeline and the Insert Measures menu command.

With the timeline method you can if you carefully follow my steps get the first Marker to move with the rest of the data, but it's far more of a PITA than just using the Insert Measures command, and dealing with the left behind Marker at insertion point separately.

All in all this whole exercise really made the whole DAW open up for me though. After constructing a song in pieces in various Chunks I really would rather just work in a single Sequence Chunk, so getting this right has been huge! Many thanks for pointing out that the rest of the Markers were in fact moving with the rest of the data, I had completely missed that.

I really think people who got into DP after the Sequence Editor became as huge as it is miss out on how powerful and useful the TO is. I'm guilty of the opposite really, I tend to work mainly in the TO and MIDI editor.

[Shooshie]

I really think people who got into DP after the Sequence Editor became as huge as it is miss out on how powerful and useful the TO is. I'm guilty of the opposite really, I tend to work mainly in the TO and MIDI editor.

We're very similar that way. I've tried to find some advantage to the Sequence Editor, but for MIDI it just seems terribly awkward. Good for lining up stuff with audio, but that's about the end of it for me. Of course... Audio is a foregone conclusion for the Sequence Editor. The Tracks Overview can be of some use for audio, but of course the Sequence Editor is made for audio.

The MIDI Editor is amazing, to me. That's where all the action takes place for MIDI, so I don't really understand when people ignore it and try to use the Sequence Editor for MIDI. It's like hauling lumber in a Volkswagen when there is this nice truck sitting right there with the keys in it, ready to go. But to each his/her own.

But the Tracks Overview... that's one of those windows you kind of have to discover for yourself, I guess. It was my first "graphic editor," so I've used it for almost 30 years. They've expanded its capabilities since the early days, but the basic "cell" approach is still extremely useful when you're moving stuff around or selecting stuff. For transposition, changing velocity, durations, and all kinds of edits en-masse, the TO is just so fast. The key to using it is knowing your data. If you know what's there, you can use the TO window for all kinds of things.

I think you and I work alike more than we work different.

Shoosh