attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

For seeking technical help with Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
This forum is for seeking solutions to technical problems involving Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS, as well as feature requests, criticisms, comparison to other DAWs.
williemyers
Posts: 1056
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Louisville, KY

attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by williemyers »

h'lo all....
I'm wondering how many of you may have been dealing with this problem - for years - and have, perhaps, found a solution?

It's simply, that a number of my VI's - notably "strings" will - even whit heavily quantization - sound behind the beat - sometimes significantly.
And yes, I know that string players *do* tend to play behind the beat, but I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about *notable* delays od up to an 1/8th note at slow tempi in hearing the sounds.

Actually, this problem (for me) goes all the way back to DP 2 & 3 and an old Giga/Garritan Orchestral Strings system. The string parts I created in DP sounded lovely, but they were so far behind that beat that I either had to physically shift advance of the notes by a 1/16 or so (depending on the tempo), thereby making the track sound great, but making it unusable as a MIDI file for later notation use. Or, I had to use DP's MIDI-Shift plugin to advance the notes. And, as I had loadz of tracks in those days, that meant loadz of installations of the plugin. Anyway, while those workarounds worked, they were a bit of a pain...

But today, no more PC's or Giga or GOS. These days, it's DP 8 & Kontakt 5 and loadz of string - and other orchestral - libraries. And guess what? The damn strings are *still* well behind the beat! And I'm talking about some of the best - - VSL, LASS, Spitfire, CS2, etc......

So, I'm wondering if any of you have had this same problem? And, if yes, how you may have dealt with it?

And I'm also wondering, what is the technical problem that would cause my system to do this? Is the MIDI "pipeline" getting bogged down? Are the drive buffers filling up too fast? Not enough RAM? I've got 16GB RAM in a 2008 8-core MacPro. My system drive is an SSD, my library drive is a 7200rpm. DP & Kontakt are both running 64-bit @ 256

Thanks a lot, hope to hear from you?
DP 9.52(OS 10.13.6), PTools 11.3.3, Sibelius 2021.12,
MacPro 5,1 mid-2010, 2 x 2.93Ghz 12 core, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 64 Gig RAM, 4 x >120G SSDs, 2 x 25" LCDs
couple o' hardware synths, loadza legal libraries
Kurz Midiboard, MOTU MTP AV

https://vimeo.com/71580152

"I always wanted to be a composer - and I am..."
"I never wanted to be a recording engineer - and I'm not..."

~me
User avatar
buzzsmith
Posts: 3097
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Houston
Contact:

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by buzzsmith »

All I can add, Willie, is that I've experienced it, too.

Drums and bass VIs are dead on. Ivory, too, amongst others.

LASS sometimes requires me to advance the notes a bit depending on the parts. (By ear, not by "eye".)

Albion, too, especially doing ostinatos. Guaranteed to be be way behind the beat.

As an aside, if I'm transferring some MIDI orchestrated parts to Finale, for instance, I'll duplicate the tracks and heavily quantize those tracks for export only.

That's all I got!

Buzzy
Early 2009 Mac Pro 4,1>5,1 3.33 GHz Hex Core Intel Xeon OS X 10.8.5 SSD (32 gigs RAM)
DP 9.51 PCI-424e / original 2408, 2408mkII, 24I/O, MTP-AV

Yamaha C7 Conservatory Grand
Hammond B-3 / Leslie 145
Focal Twin6 Be(s)

User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Could it be the way the ADSR in the VI is set? I frequently need to adjust that. Also check all the envelopes (reverbs, early and late reflections, etc).
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
Tritonemusic
Posts: 2730
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by Tritonemusic »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Could it be the way the ADSR in the VI is set? I frequently need to adjust that.
That's a great point and the first thing I'd look at. I've found that with some string samples, even if the Attack is set to the fastest setting, it takes too long to hear the sound come in. When that happens, I just shift and listen until satisfied, like Buzzy mentioned.
DP 10.13, OS 13.6, iMac Pro (2017) 3.2 GHz 8-Core, 32 GB RAM, MOTU M4
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

It might even require changing the sample start point - if possible.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
David Polich
Posts: 4827
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by David Polich »

Think about it. String players start their bowing before the beat, so they arrive (loosely) on
the first beat of the bar, much like a guitar player starts their strum before the beat so as to
finish the strum on the beat. Have you ever watched real string players while recording them?
They always start the bowing well before the beat.

In the case of legato ensembles, the attack is never "squared off" like an organ or even a percussive instrument. The attack of the amplitude envelope "ramps in".

You will always have to shift MIDI string parts earlier if you want them to "line up". I've never
encountered an exception to this rule in programming. If you're recording real players and
they are reading a chart, they will anticipate the next beat and bow early.
2019 Mac Pro 8-core, 32GB RAM, Mac OS Ventura, MIDI Express 128, Apogee Duet 3, DP 11.2x, Waves, Slate , Izotope, UAD, Amplitube 5, Tonex, Spectrasonics, Native Instruments, Pianoteq, Soniccouture, Arturia, Amplesound, Acustica, Reason Objekt, Plasmonic, Vital, Cherry Audio, Toontrack, BFD, Yamaha Motif XF6, Yamaha Montage M6, Korg Kronos X61, Alesis Ion,Sequential Prophet 6, Sequential OB-6, Hammond XK5, Yamaha Disklavier MK 3 piano.
http://www.davepolich.com
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Let's be more specific. Once the bow hits the string as well as in all pizz work, the notes are in close to perfect sync. No delays (or as close as any player can get on any instrument). But the execution, overall, is NOT delayed, only the initial attack with a bow. This is a good reason why conductors are always one beat ahead of the execution by the musicians. I've never really "taken" to that approach myself (as both a conductor and performer following a conductor).
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
User avatar
HCMarkus
Posts: 9712
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:01 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Rancho Bohemia, California
Contact:

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by HCMarkus »

David Polich wrote:You will always have to shift MIDI string parts earlier if you want them to "line up". I've never encountered an exception to this rule in programming.
I concur, and generally recommend against quantizing string parts. As David says, just shift your string MIDI tracks earlier until they sound right and don't sweat it.
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by FMiguelez »

HCMarkus wrote:
David Polich wrote:You will always have to shift MIDI string parts earlier if you want them to "line up". I've never encountered an exception to this rule in programming.
I concur, and generally recommend against quantizing string parts. As David says, just shift your string MIDI tracks earlier until they sound right and don't sweat it.
+1
Quantizing strings is a very bad idea.

For me, the most natural results are obtained by compensating for this as you play the parts. Practice them before recording until they feel fluid. THEN record them, so you don't need to edit and risk sucking the life out of them.
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by Shooshie »

I just play them a little ahead of the beat when that happens. With VSL strings, I haven't had the problem lately. I'm mainly using the Dimension Strings now, but also have the Apassionata, Chamber and a few other VSL strings. The Dimension are the best I've used in terms of realism and of fully utilizing the capabilities of the advanced Pro interface. I don't quantize them, but they do seem to respond close to the beat.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
dosuna11
Posts: 1130
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Mountlake Terrace, Washington
Contact:

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by dosuna11 »

This does not applie to the string start time samples but other VI's sync up much better for me selected running in real time in the VI sub menu.
iMac 2.7Ghz quadcore i5 16 gig RAM DP 7.24 OS 10.6.8, iMac G5 2.1GHz 2.5 gig Ram DP 5.13 OS 10.4.11 MOTU 828 MK2, East West Platinum Plus, Miroslav Philharmonic, Komplete 5, Kontakt 2 Garritan Big Band, Mr Sax T, The Trumpet, DrumCore, Trilogy and Trillian, Ivory, MachFive, Ethno Instrument, Reason 4, SampleTank 2 Sampletron, Samplemoog, Melodyne Editor, Nomad plugins, Vintage Warmer, Ozone 4, Amplitube Jimi, Xgear and AmpegSVX.
http:www.davidosuna.com
williemyers
Posts: 1056
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by williemyers »

many thanks to all who responded to my post.
reading back through the responses, I realize that I had omitted a significant piece of info in the OP?
Namely, that it is only *some* of the string notes that are falling so far behind the beat, as to be noticeable... So shifting the entire track(s) - either physically or by using the MIDI timeshift plug - probably won't work for me.
I've never been involved in creating a sample library but I would think that during the editing process, they would edit the attacks so that every note of a particular articulation would have (almost) the same attack ramp. If that's the case, in a quantized track, you could expect that all attacks would fall on the beat - or at least be delayed by the same amounts....
But not in my case. Perhaps I'll try and open up Kontakt and have a look at the samples - - see how their waveforms look....maybe a clue there?
Thanks again for your replies!
DP 9.52(OS 10.13.6), PTools 11.3.3, Sibelius 2021.12,
MacPro 5,1 mid-2010, 2 x 2.93Ghz 12 core, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 64 Gig RAM, 4 x >120G SSDs, 2 x 25" LCDs
couple o' hardware synths, loadza legal libraries
Kurz Midiboard, MOTU MTP AV

https://vimeo.com/71580152

"I always wanted to be a composer - and I am..."
"I never wanted to be a recording engineer - and I'm not..."

~me
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by Shooshie »

williemyers wrote:Perhaps I'll try and open up Kontakt and have a look at the samples - - see how their waveforms look....maybe a clue there?
THAT sounds interesting!
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
David Polich
Posts: 4827
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by David Polich »

williemyers wrote:many thanks to all who responded to my post.
reading back through the responses, I realize that I had omitted a significant piece of info in the OP?
Namely, that it is only *some* of the string notes that are falling so far behind the beat, as to be noticeable... So shifting the entire track(s) - either physically or by using the MIDI timeshift plug - probably won't work for me.
I've never been involved in creating a sample library but I would think that during the editing process, they would edit the attacks so that every note of a particular articulation would have (almost) the same attack ramp. If that's the case, in a quantized track, you could expect that all attacks would fall on the beat - or at least be delayed by the same amounts....
But not in my case. Perhaps I'll try and open up Kontakt and have a look at the samples - - see how their waveforms look....maybe a clue there?
Thanks again for your replies!
As a LONGtime programmer/sound designer who has worked for Yamaha, Korg, Roland, Dave Smith, Native, and Steinberg, I can tell you you are wasting your time looking for clues
in the attack portions of raw samples. This issue has nothing to do whatsoever with samples.
It is just the nature of MIDI programming. Despite what some may have said, the fact is string players are not human, and do not play directly on the beat, and do not bow or pluck
or pick their instruments on the beat like robots. Ever.

A stringed instrument is a "forced excitation" instrument. In other words, an activator (bow in this case) must be applied to the string in order to force it to make sound. The player must start the descent of his bow onto the string, then apply pressure (movement) to get the string to sound, and continue the bow application to force the sound to sustain. This all takes time, it may sound instantaneous to you but in the world of milliseconds it is not.

The solution is simple - shift the MIDI parts earlier to get them to line up. Really can't make it simpler than that. If it's just certain notes, and not all of them, then you'll have to select and shift just those notes. Sorry, welcome to the world of MIDI orchestration.
2019 Mac Pro 8-core, 32GB RAM, Mac OS Ventura, MIDI Express 128, Apogee Duet 3, DP 11.2x, Waves, Slate , Izotope, UAD, Amplitube 5, Tonex, Spectrasonics, Native Instruments, Pianoteq, Soniccouture, Arturia, Amplesound, Acustica, Reason Objekt, Plasmonic, Vital, Cherry Audio, Toontrack, BFD, Yamaha Motif XF6, Yamaha Montage M6, Korg Kronos X61, Alesis Ion,Sequential Prophet 6, Sequential OB-6, Hammond XK5, Yamaha Disklavier MK 3 piano.
http://www.davepolich.com
User avatar
MIDI Life Crisis
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

David, once the bow is in motion and the player changes the string length by fingering, there is no discernible delay. The string is already in motion at that point and doesn't need to "restart" the process.
2013 Mac Pro 32GB RAM

OSX 10.14.6; DP 10; Track 16; Finale 26, iPad Pro, et al

MIDI LIFE CRISIS
Post Reply