attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
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This forum is for seeking solutions to technical problems involving Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS, as well as feature requests, criticisms, comparison to other DAWs.
This forum is for seeking solutions to technical problems involving Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS, as well as feature requests, criticisms, comparison to other DAWs.
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attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
h'lo all....
I'm wondering how many of you may have been dealing with this problem - for years - and have, perhaps, found a solution?
It's simply, that a number of my VI's - notably "strings" will - even whit heavily quantization - sound behind the beat - sometimes significantly.
And yes, I know that string players *do* tend to play behind the beat, but I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about *notable* delays od up to an 1/8th note at slow tempi in hearing the sounds.
Actually, this problem (for me) goes all the way back to DP 2 & 3 and an old Giga/Garritan Orchestral Strings system. The string parts I created in DP sounded lovely, but they were so far behind that beat that I either had to physically shift advance of the notes by a 1/16 or so (depending on the tempo), thereby making the track sound great, but making it unusable as a MIDI file for later notation use. Or, I had to use DP's MIDI-Shift plugin to advance the notes. And, as I had loadz of tracks in those days, that meant loadz of installations of the plugin. Anyway, while those workarounds worked, they were a bit of a pain...
But today, no more PC's or Giga or GOS. These days, it's DP 8 & Kontakt 5 and loadz of string - and other orchestral - libraries. And guess what? The damn strings are *still* well behind the beat! And I'm talking about some of the best - - VSL, LASS, Spitfire, CS2, etc......
So, I'm wondering if any of you have had this same problem? And, if yes, how you may have dealt with it?
And I'm also wondering, what is the technical problem that would cause my system to do this? Is the MIDI "pipeline" getting bogged down? Are the drive buffers filling up too fast? Not enough RAM? I've got 16GB RAM in a 2008 8-core MacPro. My system drive is an SSD, my library drive is a 7200rpm. DP & Kontakt are both running 64-bit @ 256
Thanks a lot, hope to hear from you?
I'm wondering how many of you may have been dealing with this problem - for years - and have, perhaps, found a solution?
It's simply, that a number of my VI's - notably "strings" will - even whit heavily quantization - sound behind the beat - sometimes significantly.
And yes, I know that string players *do* tend to play behind the beat, but I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about *notable* delays od up to an 1/8th note at slow tempi in hearing the sounds.
Actually, this problem (for me) goes all the way back to DP 2 & 3 and an old Giga/Garritan Orchestral Strings system. The string parts I created in DP sounded lovely, but they were so far behind that beat that I either had to physically shift advance of the notes by a 1/16 or so (depending on the tempo), thereby making the track sound great, but making it unusable as a MIDI file for later notation use. Or, I had to use DP's MIDI-Shift plugin to advance the notes. And, as I had loadz of tracks in those days, that meant loadz of installations of the plugin. Anyway, while those workarounds worked, they were a bit of a pain...
But today, no more PC's or Giga or GOS. These days, it's DP 8 & Kontakt 5 and loadz of string - and other orchestral - libraries. And guess what? The damn strings are *still* well behind the beat! And I'm talking about some of the best - - VSL, LASS, Spitfire, CS2, etc......
So, I'm wondering if any of you have had this same problem? And, if yes, how you may have dealt with it?
And I'm also wondering, what is the technical problem that would cause my system to do this? Is the MIDI "pipeline" getting bogged down? Are the drive buffers filling up too fast? Not enough RAM? I've got 16GB RAM in a 2008 8-core MacPro. My system drive is an SSD, my library drive is a 7200rpm. DP & Kontakt are both running 64-bit @ 256
Thanks a lot, hope to hear from you?
DP 9.52(OS 10.13.6), PTools 11.3.3, Sibelius 2021.12,
MacPro 5,1 mid-2010, 2 x 2.93Ghz 12 core, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 64 Gig RAM, 4 x >120G SSDs, 2 x 25" LCDs
couple o' hardware synths, loadza legal libraries
Kurz Midiboard, MOTU MTP AV
https://vimeo.com/71580152
"I always wanted to be a composer - and I am..."
"I never wanted to be a recording engineer - and I'm not..."
~me
MacPro 5,1 mid-2010, 2 x 2.93Ghz 12 core, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 64 Gig RAM, 4 x >120G SSDs, 2 x 25" LCDs
couple o' hardware synths, loadza legal libraries
Kurz Midiboard, MOTU MTP AV
https://vimeo.com/71580152
"I always wanted to be a composer - and I am..."
"I never wanted to be a recording engineer - and I'm not..."
~me
- buzzsmith
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
All I can add, Willie, is that I've experienced it, too.
Drums and bass VIs are dead on. Ivory, too, amongst others.
LASS sometimes requires me to advance the notes a bit depending on the parts. (By ear, not by "eye".)
Albion, too, especially doing ostinatos. Guaranteed to be be way behind the beat.
As an aside, if I'm transferring some MIDI orchestrated parts to Finale, for instance, I'll duplicate the tracks and heavily quantize those tracks for export only.
That's all I got!
Buzzy
Drums and bass VIs are dead on. Ivory, too, amongst others.
LASS sometimes requires me to advance the notes a bit depending on the parts. (By ear, not by "eye".)
Albion, too, especially doing ostinatos. Guaranteed to be be way behind the beat.
As an aside, if I'm transferring some MIDI orchestrated parts to Finale, for instance, I'll duplicate the tracks and heavily quantize those tracks for export only.
That's all I got!
Buzzy
Early 2009 Mac Pro 4,1>5,1 3.33 GHz Hex Core Intel Xeon OS X 10.8.5 SSD (32 gigs RAM)
DP 9.51 PCI-424e / original 2408, 2408mkII, 24I/O, MTP-AV
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Focal Twin6 Be(s)
DP 9.51 PCI-424e / original 2408, 2408mkII, 24I/O, MTP-AV
Yamaha C7 Conservatory Grand
Hammond B-3 / Leslie 145
Focal Twin6 Be(s)
- MIDI Life Crisis
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
Could it be the way the ADSR in the VI is set? I frequently need to adjust that. Also check all the envelopes (reverbs, early and late reflections, etc).
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
That's a great point and the first thing I'd look at. I've found that with some string samples, even if the Attack is set to the fastest setting, it takes too long to hear the sound come in. When that happens, I just shift and listen until satisfied, like Buzzy mentioned.MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Could it be the way the ADSR in the VI is set? I frequently need to adjust that.
DP 10.13, OS 13.6, iMac Pro (2017) 3.2 GHz 8-Core, 32 GB RAM, MOTU M4
- MIDI Life Crisis
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
It might even require changing the sample start point - if possible.
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
Think about it. String players start their bowing before the beat, so they arrive (loosely) on
the first beat of the bar, much like a guitar player starts their strum before the beat so as to
finish the strum on the beat. Have you ever watched real string players while recording them?
They always start the bowing well before the beat.
In the case of legato ensembles, the attack is never "squared off" like an organ or even a percussive instrument. The attack of the amplitude envelope "ramps in".
You will always have to shift MIDI string parts earlier if you want them to "line up". I've never
encountered an exception to this rule in programming. If you're recording real players and
they are reading a chart, they will anticipate the next beat and bow early.
the first beat of the bar, much like a guitar player starts their strum before the beat so as to
finish the strum on the beat. Have you ever watched real string players while recording them?
They always start the bowing well before the beat.
In the case of legato ensembles, the attack is never "squared off" like an organ or even a percussive instrument. The attack of the amplitude envelope "ramps in".
You will always have to shift MIDI string parts earlier if you want them to "line up". I've never
encountered an exception to this rule in programming. If you're recording real players and
they are reading a chart, they will anticipate the next beat and bow early.
2019 Mac Pro 8-core, 32GB RAM, Mac OS Ventura, MIDI Express 128, Apogee Duet 3, DP 11.2x, Waves, Slate , Izotope, UAD, Amplitube 5, Tonex, Spectrasonics, Native Instruments, Pianoteq, Soniccouture, Arturia, Amplesound, Acustica, Reason Objekt, Plasmonic, Vital, Cherry Audio, Toontrack, BFD, Yamaha Motif XF6, Yamaha Montage M6, Korg Kronos X61, Alesis Ion,Sequential Prophet 6, Sequential OB-6, Hammond XK5, Yamaha Disklavier MK 3 piano.
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- MIDI Life Crisis
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attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
Let's be more specific. Once the bow hits the string as well as in all pizz work, the notes are in close to perfect sync. No delays (or as close as any player can get on any instrument). But the execution, overall, is NOT delayed, only the initial attack with a bow. This is a good reason why conductors are always one beat ahead of the execution by the musicians. I've never really "taken" to that approach myself (as both a conductor and performer following a conductor).
- HCMarkus
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
I concur, and generally recommend against quantizing string parts. As David says, just shift your string MIDI tracks earlier until they sound right and don't sweat it.David Polich wrote:You will always have to shift MIDI string parts earlier if you want them to "line up". I've never encountered an exception to this rule in programming.
- FMiguelez
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
+1HCMarkus wrote:I concur, and generally recommend against quantizing string parts. As David says, just shift your string MIDI tracks earlier until they sound right and don't sweat it.David Polich wrote:You will always have to shift MIDI string parts earlier if you want them to "line up". I've never encountered an exception to this rule in programming.
Quantizing strings is a very bad idea.
For me, the most natural results are obtained by compensating for this as you play the parts. Practice them before recording until they feel fluid. THEN record them, so you don't need to edit and risk sucking the life out of them.
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- Shooshie
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
I just play them a little ahead of the beat when that happens. With VSL strings, I haven't had the problem lately. I'm mainly using the Dimension Strings now, but also have the Apassionata, Chamber and a few other VSL strings. The Dimension are the best I've used in terms of realism and of fully utilizing the capabilities of the advanced Pro interface. I don't quantize them, but they do seem to respond close to the beat.
Shooshie
Shooshie
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
This does not applie to the string start time samples but other VI's sync up much better for me selected running in real time in the VI sub menu.
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
many thanks to all who responded to my post.
reading back through the responses, I realize that I had omitted a significant piece of info in the OP?
Namely, that it is only *some* of the string notes that are falling so far behind the beat, as to be noticeable... So shifting the entire track(s) - either physically or by using the MIDI timeshift plug - probably won't work for me.
I've never been involved in creating a sample library but I would think that during the editing process, they would edit the attacks so that every note of a particular articulation would have (almost) the same attack ramp. If that's the case, in a quantized track, you could expect that all attacks would fall on the beat - or at least be delayed by the same amounts....
But not in my case. Perhaps I'll try and open up Kontakt and have a look at the samples - - see how their waveforms look....maybe a clue there?
Thanks again for your replies!
reading back through the responses, I realize that I had omitted a significant piece of info in the OP?
Namely, that it is only *some* of the string notes that are falling so far behind the beat, as to be noticeable... So shifting the entire track(s) - either physically or by using the MIDI timeshift plug - probably won't work for me.
I've never been involved in creating a sample library but I would think that during the editing process, they would edit the attacks so that every note of a particular articulation would have (almost) the same attack ramp. If that's the case, in a quantized track, you could expect that all attacks would fall on the beat - or at least be delayed by the same amounts....
But not in my case. Perhaps I'll try and open up Kontakt and have a look at the samples - - see how their waveforms look....maybe a clue there?
Thanks again for your replies!
DP 9.52(OS 10.13.6), PTools 11.3.3, Sibelius 2021.12,
MacPro 5,1 mid-2010, 2 x 2.93Ghz 12 core, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 64 Gig RAM, 4 x >120G SSDs, 2 x 25" LCDs
couple o' hardware synths, loadza legal libraries
Kurz Midiboard, MOTU MTP AV
https://vimeo.com/71580152
"I always wanted to be a composer - and I am..."
"I never wanted to be a recording engineer - and I'm not..."
~me
MacPro 5,1 mid-2010, 2 x 2.93Ghz 12 core, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 64 Gig RAM, 4 x >120G SSDs, 2 x 25" LCDs
couple o' hardware synths, loadza legal libraries
Kurz Midiboard, MOTU MTP AV
https://vimeo.com/71580152
"I always wanted to be a composer - and I am..."
"I never wanted to be a recording engineer - and I'm not..."
~me
- Shooshie
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
THAT sounds interesting!williemyers wrote:Perhaps I'll try and open up Kontakt and have a look at the samples - - see how their waveforms look....maybe a clue there?
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
As a LONGtime programmer/sound designer who has worked for Yamaha, Korg, Roland, Dave Smith, Native, and Steinberg, I can tell you you are wasting your time looking for clueswilliemyers wrote:many thanks to all who responded to my post.
reading back through the responses, I realize that I had omitted a significant piece of info in the OP?
Namely, that it is only *some* of the string notes that are falling so far behind the beat, as to be noticeable... So shifting the entire track(s) - either physically or by using the MIDI timeshift plug - probably won't work for me.
I've never been involved in creating a sample library but I would think that during the editing process, they would edit the attacks so that every note of a particular articulation would have (almost) the same attack ramp. If that's the case, in a quantized track, you could expect that all attacks would fall on the beat - or at least be delayed by the same amounts....
But not in my case. Perhaps I'll try and open up Kontakt and have a look at the samples - - see how their waveforms look....maybe a clue there?
Thanks again for your replies!
in the attack portions of raw samples. This issue has nothing to do whatsoever with samples.
It is just the nature of MIDI programming. Despite what some may have said, the fact is string players are not human, and do not play directly on the beat, and do not bow or pluck
or pick their instruments on the beat like robots. Ever.
A stringed instrument is a "forced excitation" instrument. In other words, an activator (bow in this case) must be applied to the string in order to force it to make sound. The player must start the descent of his bow onto the string, then apply pressure (movement) to get the string to sound, and continue the bow application to force the sound to sustain. This all takes time, it may sound instantaneous to you but in the world of milliseconds it is not.
The solution is simple - shift the MIDI parts earlier to get them to line up. Really can't make it simpler than that. If it's just certain notes, and not all of them, then you'll have to select and shift just those notes. Sorry, welcome to the world of MIDI orchestration.
2019 Mac Pro 8-core, 32GB RAM, Mac OS Ventura, MIDI Express 128, Apogee Duet 3, DP 11.2x, Waves, Slate , Izotope, UAD, Amplitube 5, Tonex, Spectrasonics, Native Instruments, Pianoteq, Soniccouture, Arturia, Amplesound, Acustica, Reason Objekt, Plasmonic, Vital, Cherry Audio, Toontrack, BFD, Yamaha Motif XF6, Yamaha Montage M6, Korg Kronos X61, Alesis Ion,Sequential Prophet 6, Sequential OB-6, Hammond XK5, Yamaha Disklavier MK 3 piano.
http://www.davepolich.com
http://www.davepolich.com
- MIDI Life Crisis
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Re: attacking the problem of VI's playing behind the beat?
David, once the bow is in motion and the player changes the string length by fingering, there is no discernible delay. The string is already in motion at that point and doesn't need to "restart" the process.