If DP added a MIDI/VI track option would you like it?

[Steve Steele]

If MOTU added a new kind of track to DP, a MIDI/Instrument track (like in Logic), without replacing the tried and true separate MIDI and Instrument tracks, would you welcome it or find it unnecessary?

DP sometimes gets criticized in the press because the MIDI and VI tracks are still separate. It seems to be seen as a feature that MOTU still hasn't added. Personally I like always being in multitimbral mode and don't want to lose that workflow feature. But if MOTU added the ability to have a combined MIDI/VI track, would that be a welcome addition or no?

Just curious,

Thanks!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I like it as is.

[cuttime]

If I understand your question correctly, I see no need for this. If an audio plugin generates MIDI data, I just route the data to another track using Interapplication MIDI. If a MIDI plug generates audio, one routes via a bus. Am I missing something?

[jloeb]

I agree. I've always found the perception that that's a "problem" to be pure distilled stupid.

It's like complaining that a car doesn't have training wheels.

Still, if it makes the Garogic Band kids feel better, I suppose there's no harm in adding it as an option. AFTER MOTU fixes the trackpad issues.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

If the feature is implemented, would that mean every track has it's own vi? I wouldn't like that at all. Sharing VIs among multiple MIDI tracks and in vracks is preferable.

[billf]

If it were optional, fine. I prefer the way DP handles it now.

[Steve Steele]

Yes, if this feature was implanted, DP would (but does not have to), make the MID/Instrument track one track. I'm not saying that the current way of having separate MIDI and Instrument tracks would be replaced (or that's it's "stupid" or old fashion), but the feature of a combined MIDI/Instrument track would just be another way to work with tracks.

It's not about being a "dumbed down". Many people including myself enjoy this feature in Logic. There are some advantages to it. However, I WOULD NOT want the current way DP handles tracks to be replaced. The current DP way of doing this is my favorite, but it is a throw back to early sequencers. But having a MIDI/Instrument track option would be cool in certain situations.

Maybe one would have to try Logic or Cubase to "get it". It's not better, just different. It would make DP that much more flexible, IMO.

What's wrong with that?

In fact, I wish DP would steal Expression Maps and VST3 from Cubase, absolute grid from Pro Tools. MIDI/VI tracks from Logic, etc..

As part of DP9 or DP10. personally I'd love to see MOTU take the stand-out features from other DAWs and implement them (not replace them) into DP. There's no shame in this. It adds power to the program. You wouldn't be forced to work in a way you didn't want to. You'd just have the option.

[Steve Steele]

Am I missing something?

Yes. When creating a new track in Logic, one has the option of creating an audio track, a software MIDI track, and an external MIDI track (which is somewhat misleading). You also have the option to create multitimbral tracks (which is backwards IMO).

The audio track option is just like DPs. The external MIDI track is basally like DP's MIDI track option. But the software MIDI track makes one track, with both a MIDI track with a VI "inserted" into that track. So if I create a software MIDI track, one track is made that is both a MIDI track, but on the same mixer fader an Instrument (say an AU Piano sample library) is added as an instrument insert into that track. From the moment it's loaded, when you hit the record button, you are automatically playing and recording to that track and hearing the piano playback. There is no assigning MIDI tracks to VI tracks - it's all done in one track.

Here's a random youtube video explaining this. (watch out for the too loud music at 4:40 -ouch!), but you'll see that VI tracks also record the MIDI info.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiKWErWoTuw

I think, for sketching, when i don't want to open a massive template, it's a nice economical way of working.

[billf]

Am I missing something?

Yes. When creating a new track in Logic, one has the option of creating an audio track, a software MIDI track, and an external MIDI track (which is somewhat misleading). You also have the option to create multitimbral tracks (which is backwards IMO).

The audio track option is just like DPs. The external MIDI track is basally like DP's MIDI track option. But the software MIDI track makes one track, with both a MIDI track with a VI "inserted" into that track. So if I create a software MIDI track, one track is made that is both a MIDI track, but on the same mixer fader an Instrument (say an AU Piano sample library) is added as an instrument insert into that track. From the moment it's loaded, when you hit the record button, you are automatically playing and recording to that track and hearing the piano playback. There is no assigning MIDI tracks to VI tracks - it's all done in one track.

Here's a random youtube video explaining this. (watch out for the too loud music at 4:40 -ouch!), but you'll see that VI tracks also record the MIDI info.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiKWErWoTuw

I think, for sketching, when i don't want to open a massive template, it's a nice economical way of working.

In Logic it is called a "Software Instrument" track where the MIDI track automatically outputs to the audio without the extra track that's required in DP. Longtime DP users might find it feels restrictive, whereas new people coming to DP from Logic might find DP's method confusing.

[Steve Steele]

Am I missing something?

Yes. When creating a new track in Logic, one has the option of creating an audio track, a software MIDI track, and an external MIDI track (which is somewhat misleading). You also have the option to create multitimbral tracks (which is backwards IMO).

The audio track option is just like DPs. The external MIDI track is basally like DP's MIDI track option. But the software MIDI track makes one track, with both a MIDI track with a VI "inserted" into that track. So if I create a software MIDI track, one track is made that is both a MIDI track, but on the same mixer fader an Instrument (say an AU Piano sample library) is added as an instrument insert into that track. From the moment it's loaded, when you hit the record button, you are automatically playing and recording to that track and hearing the piano playback. There is no assigning MIDI tracks to VI tracks - it's all done in one track.

Here's a random youtube video explaining this. (watch out for the too loud music at 4:40 -ouch!), but you'll see that VI tracks also record the MIDI info.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiKWErWoTuw

I think, for sketching, when i don't want to open a massive template, it's a nice economical way of working.

In Logic it is called a "Software Instrument" track where the MIDI track automatically outputs to the audio without the extra track that's required in DP. Longtime DP users might find it feels restrictive, whereas new people coming to DP from Logic might find DP's method confusing.

As a long Dp user (Dp 1.7), I found Logic to be very illogical. Still do in some ways. But some features, just like in any DAW, are going to be well done (like Cubase's Expression Maps). Since many people find this a great feature, DP should do it's own take, especially as it's known as a "orchestral and film based DAW". Expression Maps really cleans up the sloppy and early implantation of Keyswitching within DAWs.

Expresion Maps makes so much sense (although i do prefer all of the CCs in one window (but it's sometimes a pain to switch between CCs). I'd like to see as keystrokes for switching between the different CCs editors in the CC window so I don't have to grab my mouse, and keep switching between different CCs. Said this before, but for the deep VEPro user like myself, VST3 would be a God send. With LASS taking up 16 MIDI channels per port there is not much room left in my string instance of VEPro. VST 3 would take care of that. For instance, I recently did a mock up for "Rite of Sping". Being limited to AU's 16 MIDI channels was a huge pain in the a$$.

I have no desire to switch to Logic, Cubase or Pro Tools, but I would like DP to copy their best features, plain and simple.

I have a list of things I wish MOTU would take from other DAWs. Maybe I'll start a new thread.

Regardless, not trying to knock MOTU and DP. It's still the best DAW on earth (although Cubase seem like they're modernizing themselves mush faster, but still have issues of their own.

I'd even like to see DP take a good look at OSX Yosemite and redesign DP to look like Yosemite. I know this is vanity, but updating the UI to modern standards would be fun, and why not? With Apple coming out with Swift, now is the time for DP to blow our minds with an amazing UI. Not like a DP 5 or 6 aqua look, but a clean and elegant look. DP is once, but it could be better.

That's what I believe in.

A great DAW is a great DAW, and I don't need a pretty face, but what if DP was both?

Be glad to answer any questions about this ideas and how I believe it would help DP for us, and in the market place.

Thanks!

[Michael Canavan]

I would be OK with it if you could write program change messages to that track. Logic 8 at least could read program change MIDI messages, but it could not write them on a VI track, you had to make a MIDI only track write program change messages, then move them to the VI track. Same is true in other DAWs, there are MIDI limitations on VI tracks. Off to see a live band, but there's also a needlessly limited feature in VI tracks in Live as well, that you need a regular MIDI track to get around.
I see nothing inherently wrong with a MIDI capable VI track, just don't make it dumbed down.
Plus this 'feature' is something I hope they think about after implementing mute MIDI clips and key ranges for MIDI tracks. Way more important MIDI features IMO.

Also wrong sub forum, this is Comparative DAW 101.

[James Steele]

Also wrong sub forum, this is Comparative DAW 101.

True enough. Moved to the Troubleshooting/Criticism forum.

[bayswater]

If the feature is implemented, would that mean every track has it's own vi? I wouldn't like that at all. Sharing VIs among multiple MIDI tracks and in vracks is preferable.

No, it wouldn't. Tracks can be re-assigned to channels in Logic, so you can have multiple MIDI tracks routed to a single VI. In fact the differences between Logic and DP in this respect are fairly minor, and related to the the user interface, rather than functionality or routing options.

That said, I find DP's approach simpler and at the same time, more flexible. Logic makes assumptions about how you want to set up VIs, and if you vary from the basic default configuration, it creates work that doesn't need to be done in DP.

[James Steele]

Like others have expressed, if it were an option, I'd have no objection. I, too, find DP's method much more flexible. For example the ability to have multiple MIDI tracks all targeting the same VI can be very helpful at times. I used to own Logic 8 Express. I just gave up on it. It was confusing to me and I felt like the lack of flexibility in many areas was a real hindrance to me.

[Shooshie]

I would oppose the idea. It blurs the meaning of tracks, and opens the door to the further Logic-ification of DP. I don't like it.

It takes an extra 15 minutes to figure out what tracks do and how to route them. Once you learn, you know for life. This is a bad feature, IMO, to help some beginners save 15 minutes, or to prevent them from ever having to open a manual.

This is one of the main things I hate about Logic, and I do not want that in DP. Making it an option does not prevent it from quickly becoming the default, because of lazy or clueless people who never learn the "real" way.

Sorry to take such a negative stand in opposing a potential feature, but it causes what I consider to be a very destructive blurring of definitions, a crutch that quickly becomes the norm when people aren't required to learn how it really works.

I spent my year trying to like Logic, and I finally rejected it as mixed-up junk. POWERFUL mixed-up junk, but mixed-up junk nonetheless. I want to keep DP as clean as possible and avoid attempts to make it like Logic.

Shooshie