Can MOTU 3 trick pony added sorely NEEDED 4th trick?

[toodamnhip]

Just saw this "pony" topic and posted on the new topic too about the V-Control.

Not perfect, but allows plug in editing with faders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAVZUpg5qfU

I've been using it for a while and it is pretty cool.

My apologies if this has already been mentioned.

Looks pretty cool but I wonder about lag due to the wireless aspect and general ballistics of the ipad. I will watch the whole tutorial later, thanks.

[toodamnhip]

The reason I said it's counter productive is because it should be easier and quicker to do with a control surface than with a mouse. If a plug in has 128+ parameters, (and a lot of them do) then you're searching through a long list on an LED in a control surface. This is actually slower than learning how to use an iPad to do this same thing. On an iPad you actually have the GUI for the plug in, the only downside is the lack of tactile feedback, and for most people the upside is well worth that trade off I'm thinking. Same reason software synths are so popular, the upside beats the downside.

When you're talking about compressors and other devices that have only a dozen or so parameters then Novation at the moment do this right. Automap detects and assigns the first batch of automatable parameters from a host. There is a cheap, 8 knob controller from Novation called Nocturn that does what you want with endless rotary encoders instead of motorized faders. http://us.novationmusic.com/MIDI-controllers/nocturn

I think it might be easier if they designed the controller drivers/software such that if a user touch a control of a plug in, the CONTROLLER chased to that parameter for fader editing. This would avoid going through lists of parameters.

[Shooshie]

MOTU, I'm begging you. Please make this product for these folks. I'll PAY you to do it. Anything to bring this subject to a resolution point!!!



Shooshie

[James Steele]

I'm all for anyone having the tools they need for their workflow requirements. I don't know much about Raven, but I know Steven Slate popped on this board to say that if enough DP users contacted him asking for support for DP to make it worth his while, he'd do it. I don't know if something like Raven might work for you, TDH, but maybe it would and Slate could be convinced?

I just found the topic. It's here:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=55509

Steven said if he could just get 300 DP users to commit to buying one, he'd support DP in a heartbeat.

EDIT: Actually Steven used that 300 number (Cue the Spartans with the 6-Pack Abs) over at Gearslutz on 12/5/13. Look down near the bottom of the page here:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much- ... le-11.html

[James Steele]

BTW, TDH, I don't mean to pile on here, but if Steven Slate is having a rough time getting just 300 DP users to commit to purchasing the Raven, would that have some bearing on the potential market for MOTU-branded control surface for DP which, as has been discussed, needs to have advanced capabilities beyond 3rd party controllers? Slate gets to recover R&D by selling to users of more than one DAW, which is probably why it exists today. I don't know how much it costs to develop hardware, but I would guess it's expensive and why I was wondering if maybe MOTU couldn't perhaps do something in software with one or more iPads? Too bad there's no way to hack into the Avid Mix and write a new OS for it.

[Shooshie]

One might assume that more than 300 would buy a control surface, and over time that would be true, but would it be enough, in time, to amortize their investment? Perhaps if they started with an existing product and just changed the software for it. They'd still have to sell it for $1000 to make any money off it.

Shooshie

[BKK-OZ]

I know that TDH's thesis is that nothing can beat physical faders, so this post elsewhere on a Touch Osc template for DP8 isn't 100% relevant, but I have put the link here FYI: http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=57421

[toodamnhip]

BTW, TDH, I don't mean to pile on here, but if Steven Slate is having a rough time getting just 300 DP users to commit to purchasing the Raven, would that have some bearing on the potential market for MOTU-branded control surface for DP which, as has been discussed, needs to have advanced capabilities beyond 3rd party controllers? Slate gets to recover R&D by selling to users of more than one DAW, which is probably why it exists today. I don't know how much it costs to develop hardware, but I would guess it's expensive and why I was wondering if maybe MOTU couldn't perhaps do something in software with one or more iPads? Too bad there's no way to hack into the Avid Mix and write a new OS for it.

If you had an artist mix, I know you’d have the fire power to convince them, you did so with the other controller..lol..
I have been in contact for some time with Steven but via email and in person about the Raven.
YEah, maybe I will have to spring for an ipad and try the software angle..I am not sure touch glass is that much better than mousing except for multiple simultaneous fader moves.

While your financial R&D based reasoning remains sound as to why MOTU shouldn’t develop a hardware controller, I still maintain that the initial development be as much about prestige as immediate profit. I really haven;t heard you comment on my exact angle of reasoning here. Prestige and perceived scope, value and professionalism of the product, I acquiesce to the fact that DP users seems an un inspired bunch when it comes to hardware controller.
They just don;t know what they are missing and need to be shown.-That is up to MOTU.
I’d still love to see DP get it's “prestige-value -scope" shot in the arm to get into the bigger rooms and then trickle down to the band boys. A fully integrated desk version of DP that looks more like a real studio could serve in this function nicely.
I am no one to say what MOTU should do. I just dream big for them man. It is indeed sometimes sad though when a company does take a risk and is not supported by the masses who seek out cheaper, lower grade options. This is where a visionary company like Apple shines by showing people a better way and making them want it.
I would seriously love to run MOTUs ad and promo division. I;d do it a lot differently. Like I’ve said before- I'd make shinny new, complete ads about specific functions that the DP has for starters. They wouldn’t just be technical, they be musical and artfully done, and simple and to the point. This is not to say that MOTU has not gotten better at their pubic outreach, for they have improved in the last yr especially.

[Michael Canavan]

I think it might be easier if they designed the controller drivers/software such that if a user touch a control of a plug in, the CONTROLLER chased to that parameter for fader editing. This would avoid going through lists of parameters.

The Nocturn already does that to a degree. Like I said in a soft synth for example with over 128 parameters the first 8 published by that synth are assigned, more like the first 128. You can also permanently assign 128 parameters to the Nocturn, so that every time you open that plug in, the list of parameters is exactly where you want it.
The method you suggest requires the end user to manually assign by touch the controller and touching with the mouse etc. the plug in parameter every time, so it's my guess that most people would prefer the Noturn solution over what you propose. When you assign a controller to "Automap" you do essentially what you describe, once, then after that the pot is available for that parameter every time. For a lot of plug ins this isn't even necessary, as plug ins like Massive, Zebra, Alchemy etc. have an in house 8 pot "performance" assignment. This gets automatically assigned to the first 8 pots in Nocturne and other Novation products.

So a solution already exists, and if it was wildly popular it would have more competition. Have you even tried it?

[toodamnhip]

I think it might be easier if they designed the controller drivers/software such that if a user touch a control of a plug in, the CONTROLLER chased to that parameter for fader editing. This would avoid going through lists of parameters.

The Nocturn already does that to a degree. Like I said in a soft synth for example with over 128 parameters the first 8 published by that synth are assigned, more like the first 128. You can also permanently assign 128 parameters to the Nocturn, so that every time you open that plug in, the list of parameters is exactly where you want it.
The method you suggest requires the end user to manually assign by touch the controller and touching with the mouse etc. the plug in parameter every time, so it's my guess that most people would prefer the Noturn solution over what you propose. When you assign a controller to "Automap" you do essentially what you describe, once, then after that the pot is available for that parameter every time. For a lot of plug ins this isn't even necessary, as plug ins like Massive, Zebra, Alchemy etc. have an in house 8 pot "performance" assignment. This gets automatically assigned to the first 8 pots in Nocturne and other Novation products.

So a solution already exists, and if it was wildly popular it would have more competition. Have you even tried it?

No, I haven’t tried this device and it does indeed sound promising.
The only thing I am not liking about what I am seeing in this product is lack up motorized fader movement. That is really what I would like as touchy adjustments benefit from a fader showing any given parameters locations while editing.

[Michael Canavan]

No, I haven’t tried this device and it does indeed sound promising.
The only thing I am not liking about what I am seeing in this product is lack up motorized fader movement. That is really what I would like as touchy adjustments benefit from a fader showing any given parameters locations while editing.

The Nocturn uses endless rotary encoders, this is mechanically more robust, plus most plug in parameters are presented as pots, not faders. They don't present you with the position currently held visually, but that's already visible on your computer.

This is a viable solution, and you don't have to share your faders with plug ins etc.

[James Steele]

BTW, TDH, I don't mean to pile on here, but if Steven Slate is having a rough time getting just 300 DP users to commit to purchasing the Raven, would that have some bearing on the potential market for MOTU-branded control surface for DP which, as has been discussed, needs to have advanced capabilities beyond 3rd party controllers? Slate gets to recover R&D by selling to users of more than one DAW, which is probably why it exists today. I don't know how much it costs to develop hardware, but I would guess it's expensive and why I was wondering if maybe MOTU couldn't perhaps do something in software with one or more iPads? Too bad there's no way to hack into the Avid Mix and write a new OS for it.

If you had an artist mix, I know you’d have the fire power to convince them, you did so with the other controller..lol..

Before I even look at anything else in your comments, let me address this statement. Firstly, it was another user and I who approached the guy who had worked on AlphaTrack. All that needed to happen was that the DP control surface bundle be updated for 64-bit. The person who did it figured he'd do it to help out and if he could sell TEN for $50/each via his website, he might make minimum wage for giving up a few days of his life to do so. The link is here, BTW:

http://www.synclavier.com/AlphaTrackPlugin.html

So we're talking someone who was willing to do a relatively small job, for a small amount of money. There's very little relevance between that scenario and the Artist Mix... "lol" or no "lol."

[James Steele]

...I still maintain that the initial development be as much about prestige as immediate profit.

You qualify the word "profit" with the word "immediate." What if there is NO profit? Not immediately... not ever? THAT is the situation that must be factored in. It seems to be your contention that MOTU should go ahead and lose money to make a controller you want for the sake of this "prestige" that you feel MOTU lacks to the degree that they need to go BUY it with a risky venture in a lackluster economy.

I acquiesce to the fact that DP users seems an un inspired bunch when it comes to hardware controller.
They just don;t know what they are missing and need to be shown.-That is up to MOTU.

So rather than just build a product for which there is a proven market demand, MOTU needs to risk a lot of capital to design and build a product with potentially very little demand and then take up the cause of educating those who haven't been enlightened to your particular way of working and convince them they need to purchase said product? Mmmmm... okay.

I’d still love to see DP get it's “prestige-value -scope" shot in the arm to get into the bigger rooms and then trickle down to the band boys. A fully integrated desk version of DP that looks more like a real studio could serve in this function nicely.
I am no one to say what MOTU should do. I just dream big for them man. It is indeed sometimes sad though when a company does take a risk and is not supported by the masses who seek out cheaper, lower grade options. This is where a visionary company like Apple shines by showing people a better way and making them want it.

And if Apple spends a boatload of money and brings a product to the market that flops or doesn't do well, they have billions in the bank to fall back on. What about MOTU, however? Hardly a valid comparison.

I would seriously love to run MOTUs ad and promo division. I;d do it a lot differently. Like I’ve said before- I'd make shinny new, complete ads about specific functions that the DP has for starters. They wouldn’t just be technical, they be musical and artfully done, and simple and to the point. This is not to say that MOTU has not gotten better at their pubic outreach, for they have improved in the last yr especially.

You'd either make them a lot of money or drive them into the ground inside of a year. Maybe they should hire you and just take the gamble while they're also gambling on control surfaces for which there's potentially very little demand? MOTU tends to be pretty conservative, but considering how long they've been around when a number of other players have come and gone, they must be doing something right. It may just be that they have no desire to be the next Avid. Who knows?

[toodamnhip]

It is true they have been around for some time. And if AVID flounders, it will be even more a testament to that.
I read all you wrote and yes, I think they should do it my way. And I think they should have confidence in their own product that as years went by, they would have a large enough DAW share market to eventually make back their money. You and I have no real idea why they have not made such a product. So we can bounce off each other all day on this aspect. But, IF it was true that MOTU didn;t make a controller for fear of never making a profit, I would consider that a tremendous lack of faith in it’s own product and user base. But again, all speculation. My guess is they DO have faith in their user base. Which again, makes it very strange to me that haven;t made a hardware controller. Because they have a long history of making hardware for their DAW they can “universal-ize” and then sell to others. A hardware controller would follow in that tradition and Seems like a no brainer.
But let me surrender to you finally as I hate getting you mad. OK, there is no viable incentive for MOTU to make a hardware controller.
The answer to my post is:
“No, MOTU cannot add a sorely needed 4th trick pony and, a 4th trick is not wanted enough by the music world, just too_damn_hip, who is pretty much alone in this desire and not enough reason for a long standing company like MOTU to go out of it’s way and go broke just for him”..
Or something to that effect...
It was just a dream...I sure would have liked to have seen it.

[James Steele]

But, IF it was true that MOTU didn;t make a controller for fear of never making a profit, I would consider that a tremendous lack of faith in it’s own product and user base.

They're a for-profit business, not a religious organization. You would have them roll the dice and bet the farm. Easy to say, when it's not your job or business at risk.