Can MOTU 3 trick pony added sorely NEEDED 4th trick?

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:29 pm

MOTU, 3 trick pony-
1) Great DAW
2) Decent Audio interfaces, very versatile.
3) Video interfaces= top notch and even groundbreaking

4) No dedicated hardware control surface,,,,,over and over and over failing to develop the perfect compliment to it’s long standing DAW.

I am soooo bored of this missing ingredient. I see MOTU has a new entry in category 3, video utilizing thunderbolt. While this is fine, it is more of the same. Will a dedicated control surface ever be developed MOTU?

The 4th trick awaits you!!!!! I’ve seen and been impressed by the 1st 3 tricks for years, I am getting bored...
Grateful for a great DAW for sure, but bored of the same flips and tricks while waiting for the "pies de resistance", the Quadruple Crown....a DEDICATED CONTROL SURFACE!!
Why do I have to go to AVID for this? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Killahurts · Post by **Killahurts** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:37 am

You're yet again asking for an answer to one of the great mysteries.

MOTU never explains the reasoning behind not doing it, and one likes to think there actually is a reason..

I think they may realize that they already missed the boat with a controller. I would buy one.. You would buy one, but I'll bet most power users on this board would pass, no matter how cool it was. The mouse is still king.

So, don't hold your breath, or you will suffocate

TinenTech · Post by **TinenTech** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:55 am

Why should MOTU develop its own dedicated control surface when they've done such good implementations of the ones that are already out there? What comparative advantage would they have in that market? Especially now in the iPad age...the low end of the market has been eaten up by TouchOSC.

For one example, the Mackie Control works very well with both Digital Performer and CueMix FX. MOTU implemented support of these well beyond the call of duty: I never really appreciated CueMix until I started controlling it from an MC. Now, during tracking sessions, I have the MC at my side and it follows whatever app is in front, so I can go back and forth between controlling DP and the headphone mixes in the studio. It takes some time and tweaking to get this to work right, but it's worth the effort.

This isn't the MOTU Hardware forum, but I wish they would make it possible to control CueMix from a controller without having a computer in-between (that is, to run Cue Mix inside the interface, instead of on the Mac). This would turn these interfaces into stand-alone digital mixers.

I can see some justification for MOTU making an interface with faders like a Digi 002, but even Avid has downplayed that product.

At the high end (Icon), different story, perhaps. Can DP be controlled by an Icon?

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:20 am

... or run Cuemix via MIDI so I can hook it up to my iPad with iRig and use my Track 16 live and not have to worry that it's setup for a specific show in advance.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:50 am

Killahurts wrote:You're yet again asking for an answer to one of the great mysteries.

MOTU never explains the reasoning behind not doing it, and one likes to think there actually is a reason..

I think they may realize that they already missed the boat with a controller. I would buy one.. You would buy one, but I'll bet most power users on this board would pass, no matter how cool it was. The mouse is still king.

So, don't hold your breath, or you will suffocate

I have a good buddy I am in a straight ahead jazz group with. He is a producer, pro tools guy etc. I keep trying to get him to understand that once you mix with faders and a control surface, you NEVER would go back. He doesn't seem to "get it". I watch him crawl around with his mouse....so slow...MOUSES SUCK!! And that is just a plain truth and anyone who doesn't know that, well, I feel for them man, i really do. And ipads suck too. No feel man.
My best experience was when I mixed on a Yamaha DM 2000 when I was with Arista. That was for about 2 yrs and I did so on Pro Tools. That got me truly spoiled for faders. Now I mix and produce everywhere in LA but in my home location, I have Avid artist series stuff. There are bugs but I've learned the work arounds. MOTU and Avid can't seem to get it together to fix the bugs which sucks but I still love using the faders, slight bugs or not.
Why MOTU wouldn't find huge sales for a control surface is truly beyond comprehension.
More audio interfaces, video gizmos..all cool, but the elephant in the room is the missing control surface...

Killahurts · Post by **Killahurts** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:03 am

TinenTech wrote:For one example, the Mackie Control works very well with both Digital Performer and CueMix FX. MOTU implemented support of these well beyond the call of duty

Yes, I use MCU with my SSL. It does work, but has BIG limitations. For instance, you cannot organize the tracks, or order/assign the faders at all. No folders, nothing. If I use the mouse to select a track in DP, the desk doesn't scroll to it, so I have to scroll through 350+ tracks, 16 at a time, until I see the the lighted track. These are just a couple of the shortcomings with MCU and DP.

A MOTU controller would have much deeper DP implementation.. talk about opening up some new possibilities!

Can DP be controlled by an Icon?

The real answer is, never.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:56 am

Killahurts wrote:
TinenTech wrote:For one example, the Mackie Control works very well with both Digital Performer and CueMix FX. MOTU implemented support of these well beyond the call of duty
Yes, I use MCU with my SSL. It does work, but has BIG limitations. For instance, you cannot organize the tracks, or order/assign the faders at all. No folders, nothing. If I use the mouse to select a track in DP, the desk doesn't scroll to it, so I have to scroll through 350+ tracks, 16 at a time, until I see the the lighted track. These are just a couple of the shortcomings with MCU and DP.

A MOTU controller would have much deeper DP implementation.. talk about opening up some new possibilities!

Can DP be controlled by an Icon?
The real answer is, never.

Artist mix works, with a few caveats, especially as regards automating plug ins.
If you take over control of ANY parameter of a plug in with artist mix, you have to click on that parameter in DP's plug in window to get DP to take back control..crazy man. Also, fader selection is a bit funky. But one can get used to it and get pretty good results.
Of course, when I mix in Pro Tools, life is a breeze using artist mix with full integration like it's supposed to work.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:28 pm

Can a jockey who has grown so big that he needs a 4th trick still ride a 3-trick pony without his feet dragging the ground?

Dude, you're leaving gouges in the ground everywhere your pony goes. It's your boots dragging the ground. You've outgrown your pony, man! Better get yourself one of those big ponies! Once you've tried a big pony, you'll never go back.

Take it from me. I grew up on horses. Little ponies are temperamental little bastards, no matter HOW many tricks they know. (and most of them know a bunch of tricks) After a while, you just wanna:

Shooshie

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:06 pm

Shooshie wrote:Can a jockey who has grown so big that he needs a 4th trick still ride a 3-trick pony without his feet dragging the ground?

Dude, you're leaving gouges in the ground everywhere your pony goes. It's your boots dragging the ground. You've outgrown your pony, man! Better get yourself one of those big ponies! Once you've tried a big pony, you'll never go back.

Take it from me. I grew up on horses. Little ponies are temperamental little bastards, no matter HOW many tricks they know. (and most of them know a bunch of tricks) After a while, you just wanna:

Shooshie

Wowie/// I feel so big looking down on that lil’ MOTU pony....
Where’s my whip?

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:02 pm

toodamnhip wrote: Wowie/// I feel so big looking down on that lil’ MOTU pony....
Where’s my whip?

Aaaa. Greenhorn! Haven't you heard of the Horse Whisperer?
You have to show the pony what you want it to do, unambiguously. Whips mean something entirely different than what you want. You start with the gray matter between the rider's ears, and once that is unambiguously focused, you transfer its wants to the pony in language it can understand, convincing it that life is good when your goals are aligned.

The rest is about clear instruction. When the pony fails to understand, the fault is always in the instruction. Other than a little maintenance and care, that's pretty much the long and short of pony tricks.

Shooshie

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:41 pm

Who wouldn't want a 4 trick pony?

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:09 am

Shooshie wrote:
toodamnhip wrote: Wowie/// I feel so big looking down on that lil’ MOTU pony....
Where’s my whip?
Aaaa. Greenhorn! Haven't you heard of the Horse Whisperer?
You have to show the pony what you want it to do, unambiguously. Whips mean something entirely different than what you want. You start with the gray matter between the rider's ears, and once that is unambiguously focused, you transfer its wants to the pony in language it can understand, convincing it that life is good when your goals are aligned. The rest is about clear instruction. When the pony fails to understand, the fault is always in the instruction. Other than a little maintenance and care, that's pretty much the long and short of pony tricks.

Shooshie

shhhh h-a-r-d-w-a-r-e- c-o-n-t-r-o-l s-u-r-f-a-c-e G-O-O-D...........motu...shhhhhh

TinenTech · Post by **TinenTech** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:04 am

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:... or run Cuemix via MIDI so I can hook it up to my iPad with iRig and use my Track 16 live and not have to worry that it's setup for a specific show in advance.

Actually, this would not be very difficult, since the original Mackie Controller uses MIDI commands (with the caveat that it takes up an entire port, all 16 channels, each way).

Speaking of CueMix and live, I wish that Load Preset could respond to a MIDI command, instead of having to pull down a menu. And that there were more than 16 presets...100 should be the minimum.

TinenTech · Post by **TinenTech** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:23 am

toodamnhip wrote: I have a good buddy I am in a straight ahead jazz group with. He is a producer, pro tools guy etc. I keep trying to get him to understand that once you mix with faders and a control surface, you NEVER would go back. He doesn't seem to "get it". I watch him crawl around with his mouse....so slow...MOUSES SUCK!! And that is just a plain truth and anyone who doesn't know that, well, I feel for them man, i really do. And ipads suck too. No feel man....

I empathize. I have a client who never wants me to use faders because they put too many dots into the volume layer, and she likes to edit dot-by-dot, with nice neat ramps inbetween. A lot of people have gotten into mixing with their eyes instead of their ears; faders make mixing faster and better. But there are times when doing another write pass is more cumbersome than editing the controller. I find I use the mouse mostly after doing a few passes with the faders.

TinenTech · Post by **TinenTech** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:36 am

Killahurts wrote: Yes, I use MCU with my SSL. It does work, but has BIG limitations. For instance, you cannot organize the tracks, or order/assign the faders at all. No folders, nothing. If I use the mouse to select a track in DP, the desk doesn't scroll to it, so I have to scroll through 350+ tracks, 16 at a time, until I see the the lighted track. These are just a couple of the shortcomings with MCU and DP.

That's a very good criticism of the MCU implementation. Are you watching, MOTU? I don't work on big sessions like that on my rig, so hadn't recognized that hassle.

But, having worked in manufacturing myself, it would be much, much, much better payback to hire more software engineers to improve the DP implementation of existing control surfaces than to "reinvent the wheel" which would require many more software and hardware engineers. If they can't fix the bugs with Avid, how could they handle the much bigger task of building something from the ground up?

In your line of work, I bet you'd like a 32 or 48-channel surface, right? Like an Icon? That would be out of scale for a relatively small company like MOTU. A high-end, expensive product like that isn't where their core market is, and the high-end guys would take a lot of convincing to get away from Avid or SSL or Yamaha desks. I don't think the market would be that big and the cost of entry is very high.

And controlling plugins from a surface is always going to leave something out, because they're all so different. I always go to the screen at that point. Volume, pans, send levels, better on the surface. EQs, maybe. Compression, reverb...too confusing on a surface. Most of the bang for the buck is in the faders.

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