MTP-AV and USB 3.0?

[Babz]

Is anyone using older MIDI interfaces with a Mac that has USB 3 ports?

I just bought a brand new Mac Mini and am having a devil of a time. The only software I have installed so far is DP 8.01, as well as the latest MTP-AV driver and the driver for the audio interface I'm trying to use, a Lexicon I-onix U42s. The I-onix is discontinued and the driver predates Mountain Lion, so ML is not officially supported.

I tested the Lexicon with audio, recorded a few tracks and audio seemed to be working fine.

Next step was to test with MIDI. I installed the latest MOTU MIDI driver and hooked up my MTP-AV and XP-80, and when I began to test, I instantly found nothing but all sorts of MIDI weirdness -- stuck notes, missing notes, notes wildly jumping octaves, even weird filter and envelope messages randomly appearing (my piano patched suddenly got edited to a soft attack, like a cello, and no way to fix it but reboot the XP80 -- weird, weird!)

I figured the ionix might be the culprit (even though I wasn't using it for MIDI, only for audio), so I uninstalled the driver and removed it from the system. I have also had two kernel panics, which I thought might be related to the ionix, so that was another reason to uninstall it.

Since then I'm still getting stuck and missing notes (but so far the weird envelope and filter garbage seems to have gone away).

I finally broke down and did the unthinkable -- yes, I called MOTU Tech Support! Believe it or not, no busy signal, no menus -- the phone rings and I got a HUMAN answering the phone on the SECOND RING!!! WOW! That in itself almost places this entire saga in the realm of the paranormal!

Turns out (acc. to one MOTU) that there is a known issue with "Apple's implementation of USB 3" and backward compatibility with some older USB devices like the MTP-AV. He says the workaround is to put a USB 2 hub between MTP-AV and the USB 3 port and that should fix it.

I only had a USB 1.1 hub, and I tried that, and still getting stuck and dropped notes. Might be worth investing in a USB 2 hub, but so far I'm pretty discouraged.

Anybody have any experience with this?

Is USB 3 a no-go for MIDI?

Brand new Mac, brand new install, but no joy…

Thanks for any advice,
Babz

[Shooshie]

There are some fine powered USB 2.0 hubs available for very little money. They use an AC adaptor for power, and I'm going to guess that these would be more suited for bridging between the flawed USB 3.0 implementation and the rock-solid USB MTP-AV, or other MIDI interfaces by MOTU. I'm guessing this to be the case, because there have been other USB issues in the past that never affected me, and I assumed the reason to be that my powered hubs made for better transfer of the USB signal than the passive USB splitter hubs that affected others. Those devices that got their power from the USB port of the host were finding that power to be greatly affected by other devices that shared power from the host's supply. Since my devices were getting constant, filtered power from the wall-wart of my USB hub's AC adapter, they were immune to such fluctuations.

If this is indeed related to the problems experienced by those same devices when using the host's USB-3, then a good 3rd party power supply just might be the answer here, too. Again, I'm guessing; I haven't experienced the problem or the fix. I'm just saying that the problem may be an old one that isn't really limited to USB-3, in which case a separately powered hub may be of use.

[Babz]

Yes, Shoosh, it turns out that USB 2.0 makes all the difference! The reason why I was testing with a 1.1 hub is as follows....

When MOTU tech support advised me of the hub fix, I looked around my studio and found that I had 2 different, nice, powered USB hubs, but there was no marking on them to indicate if they were USB1 or 2. Googling showed that one of them, a Belkin hub, was sometimes listed as a 1.1 and sometimes 2.0, so I wasn't sure which sites to believe. I finally determined through more extensive research that it was a 1.1 hub, but it was all I had at the moment.

To really test MOTU's advice, I needed to find a good powered, USB 2 hub ASAP. But easy to order one online; not so easy to find in stores. (Radio Shack, for example, only had these lame bus-powered ones in stock.)

BUT THEN, I remembered that there is a USB hub built into my Dell 24 in. Monitor!

I checked the manual and found the Dell is indeed a USB 2.0 hub.

I hooked the MTP directly up to the monitor hub, tested, and MIDI PROBLEMS GONE! Joy at last!!!

You can mark this one as "solved", but this USB 3 thing is a major thing to be aware of. It affects anyone who buys one of the new Macs that have only USB 3 ports. I've researched it online and found a lot of people having issues going back a year or more. (For example, at one point Native Instrument users were actually hacking the OS to downgrade the USB kernel extension to 2.0 speed to get it to work with their NI hardware.) I should probably also post a separate report of my experience and findings, a cautionary tale. Beware of USB 3 and MIDI people!

According to MOTU, it only affects USB MIDI, not their USB audio devices. The USB 2 hub fix is a temporary workaround, they say, while we wait for a fix from Apple. OS 10.8.4 is currently in beta, so I have my fingers crossed. However, according to my research, this problem has been around since OS 10.7.4 and were up to 10.8.3 now and still no fix from Apple. (10.7.3 was the last version that included a USB 2 kext.)

For now I can report that the hub fix is working for me, but it has to be a *2.0* hub.

Best,
Babz

[Kellog]

Hey Babz are you still having success with your MIDI and the USB 2 hub? I'm having rampant stuck MIDI problems with my new macbook connected to my old mtp av. If so do you mind sharing which hub you are using? Thanks,Kelly

[Kellog]

Read again and saw its a Dell monitor hub you used...

[mikehalloran]

USB 1.1 vs 2.0 isn't the issue. Neither is it "poor implementation" but the newer Intel chipsets. Recent USB 2 powered hubs seem to be helping.

USB 3 is not backwards compatible with USB 2. The two protocols share the connector (and cable if a USB 3 cable). There are separate pins and wires for each. A USB 2/1.1 cable cannot carry USB 3 data. Many PCs have USB 3 ports that cannot carry USB 2 and some USB 3 powered hubs will have separate connectors for each.

Another thing to remember is that Mac portables with multiple USB ports support bus power on one port only. This has been true since 2007, IIRC.

[Babz]

Last I heard this issue has been resolved as of Mavericks.

Shortly after Mavericks was released, I spoke to someone at MOTU tech support who said that their interfaces were working fine with USB3 and no hub under Mavericks. I haven't been able to confirm this, because I haven't yet done the Mavericks upgrade. Can anyone else confirm?

Really hoping to upgrade to Mavericks soon but have a few issues to resolve first.

For now, MIDI is working fine for me with my USB2 to hub and ML.

Babz

[Kellog]

I bought a Gigaware hub and all seems to be working without a hitch. I don't have Mavericks and this $30 purchase feels well worth it. So thanks for figuring this workaround out earlier and offering the info for me to find. Pretty pleased right now.

[Shooshie]

Last I heard this issue has been resolved as of Mavericks.

Shortly after Mavericks was released, I spoke to someone at MOTU tech support who said that their interfaces were working fine with USB3 and no hub under Mavericks. I haven't been able to confirm this, because I haven't yet done the Mavericks upgrade. Can anyone else confirm?

Really hoping to upgrade to Mavericks soon but have a few issues to resolve first.

For now, MIDI is working fine for me with my USB2 to hub and ML.

Babz

Pardon my forthcoming contrarian advice, but I'd wait before upgrading to Mavericks, until Apple has ironed out the myriad little problems that make it feel very "unfinished." One of the most noticeable for some people (myself included) has been a tendency for scrolling to lock up and/or to act hesitant in some cases such as DP's faders. Not everyone reports this, but enough people have reported it to be certain that it is an OS flaw. (there are Apple-related forums with dozens of posts about this; maybe hundreds) Another little detail happens in Quicklook, which makes full-screen slideshows impossible without holding down the Option key for the duration of the show. What happens is that after the first picture, the rest will present at the actual size of the image file, not zoomed to full screen, even though it sits in a full-screen background. Hold down the option key and the images will zoom to full screen. (until you let go of it) Yes, it's a minor detail unless you've become dependent on Finder-based slideshows in Quicklook) Another minor detail: screensaver slideshows no longer respond to the pause button (spacebar). Touch any key but the forward and backward arrow, and you'll disengage the screensaver.

I know these sound like niggling little details, but they are representative of many such details that rob us of functionality that we've come to depend on. By far, the worst I've experienced is the scrolling problem. Only restarting the computer will really fix that, and then for only a short time.

However, if there are that many problems that we can SEE, I greatly fear the ones we cannot see; the underpinnings such as the file system, Time Machine, Extensions, online security, and so forth. I'd hate to find out that future versions of DP and OSX will not properly read or process files made during this time. (and there is NO EVIDENCE that this is happening; this is only a fear of mine) My belief is that when programmers miss so many details on the surface, they are missing them everywhere else, too.

So... despite the fact that Mavericks may be fixing some old problems, it appears to have created a lot of new ones. Though it's too late for me to go back (I'm not going to reinstall everything from scratch, and I did not save a binary of my OS) I am recommending that people refrain from upgrading until Apple fixes some things. I don't have the definitive word here, so seek other opinions if you like. I'm just relating my experience and observations.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

PS:
More little niggling problems in Mavericks, none of which causes permanent damage (as far as I know), but leave me with doubts about the whole thing:

• Cursor disappears in iTunes Full-Screen, and forgets to come back when you need it again. Clicking in the Apple Menu area (full-left, full-up) gets it back usually, but it's frustrating.
• Sometimes the cursor freezes. This is rare, but has happened. In fact, the whole mouse seems to (rarely) quit working sometimes.
• Pinch-to-zoom, a trackpad gesture, doesn't work on all photos in iPhoto. I can't figure out why. They can be of similar type (jpg, for instance), and one will zoom, but another won't. Never saw that behavior before. The feature is not as useful in iPhoto now.
• Pinch-to-zoom no longer changes Finder icon sizes. (this may have happened before Mavericks) But this gesture is inconsistently applied throughout the Mac, whereas previously it was becoming more and more consistent in most apps.
• Of course, scrolling continues to cause problems intermittently. Restarting the Mac (or logging out and in) will temporarily fix it.
• Some older movie types no longer work. If you try to view them in QuickLook they simply show nothing. Check Get Info, and they'll show 0 Bytes for file size. But if you open them in Quicktime Player, it will repair them and convert them to a working type. SOME of them. I have some that it will not repair. Distressing, since I don't know how I could ever get those movies again, at least in Mavericks. Of course they still work on other machines.
• iTunes no longer notifies me when a new episode in a TV series season is ready and available for download. I have to check them all manually. (yeah, poor me, but seriously this is how iTunes is supposed to work, and it's not working)
• Slightly more difficult to edit URLs in Safari's Bookmarks Bar. Now, the only way is to right-click or CONTROL-Click to get the menu and pull down to "edit address." Previously you could see the address in the right column, and edit it there if it needed it. There is no more right column. You can't read the addresses in the list if they are stored under names, as most bookmarks are.
• Many applications would not boot at first. It took a few tries, and sometimes perseverance to get things working right again.

There are others. I'll have to add them as I find them. Actually, I should post this in the Mavericks threads, not here. So future updates of this post will probably be in one of those.

And to be more positive, there are many good things about Mavericks, such as the fixing of the long-standing bug in the Finder which caused custom icons to display in lower resolutions, making your icons look fuzzy and awful! Mavericks has apparently fixed that for good. And many other things. But to see so much broken functionality disturbs me about the rest. Upgrade at your own risk.

[mikehalloran]

This scrolling issue - is anyone having it on anything other than a Mac Pro?

Do you use built in Bluetooth or is it 3rd party? I know that many MPs did not come with Bluetooth built in.

My 2010 iMac is not having those issues and I use the Magic Trackpad as do many of the Macs I maintain. None of us have a MP, however.

My only issue is that Pages isn't working well in iCloud through any browser. It's fine on my iPad and iPhone. I suspect iCloud rather than Mavericks but haven't checked it lately on any computer not running Mavs.

The new Safari sucks but Chrome behaves nicely. I still don't understand why neither lets me print shipping labels from PayPal - I still need FireFox for that one task. Opera is still best for downloading from busy sites when other browsers fail - new product releases, updates etc. - if it's useful for anything else, I don't know.

[Shooshie]

This scrolling issue - is anyone having it on anything other than a Mac Pro?

According to the Apple forums, it's happening on all types of Macs, including the mini. There's probably a trigger, such as an extension or something that not everyone is using, or that doesn't come on until you do a certain activity. I have no idea why it's affecting some and not others. Or maybe it's particular vintages of CPUs. I'm using a 2012 Mac Pro. Earlier iMacs were using the same chips. Later iMacs are using different (more advanced) chips. Same with the MacBook Pros.

It would be impossible for me to guess the source of the conflict without doing a database of at least a half-dozen different Macs, their contents, extensions, apps, etc., and what of these were open in a session before it started happening. That would be a major undertaking, and I think I'll leave it to Apple.

Do you use built in Bluetooth or is it 3rd party? I know that many MPs did not come with Bluetooth built in.

Yeah, mine is built-in. Came with the Mac Pro. I used 3rd party Bluetooth for years, though, without problems, and this built-in bluetooth has never failed. Of course, Apple could have changed their protocols for Bluetooth.

Again the Apple forums make it clear that this is a wide-spread problem, not the sort of thing that occurs with, say, just one brand of 3rd party Bluetooth.

My 2010 iMac is not having those issues and I use the Magic Trackpad as do many of the Macs I maintain. None of us have a MP, however.

I wish I knew the difference. I'd love to be done with this. Safari may be the biggest culprit, and it may be the trigger, as well. Maybe I should use another browser for a while. I'm just so accustomed to it, though.

Also, I've learned that when restarting my Mac, if I choose NOT to have it reopen the apps that were running at the time of restart, I seem to get more time before it happens again. So, I'm coping with it.

My only issue is that Pages isn't working well in iCloud through any browser. It's fine on my iPad and iPhone. I suspect iCloud rather than Mavericks but haven't checked it lately on any computer not running Mavs.

I use Pages but not that often. I used to be big on word processors, but I've kind of left them as utility apps for those rare occasions that I actually write a real letter. I've also got Word 2011. I'm equally likely to use either one. I haven't noticed any problems with either, but I don't usually go very deep with them. My templates in Word have been set up for at least 25 years.

The new Safari sucks but Chrome behaves nicely. I still don't understand why neither lets me print shipping labels from PayPal - I still need FireFox for that one task. Opera is still best for downloading from busy sites when other browsers fail - new product releases, updates etc. - if it's useful for anything else, I don't know.

I was printing shipping labels from Paypal in Safari just last month. Not sure if that was before or after I upgraded to Mavericks. l did the upgrade mid-month, and those labels went out around then. I'll have to take a look at that.

People in the Apple Forums were complaining about iMacs, MacBook Pros, Mac Minis, and Mac Pros. They complained about the Magic Trackpad, Magic Mouse, Built-in trackpads, and 3rd party trackballs, if I remember correctly. Or it may have been the older Mighty Mouse. It could be a Bluetooth thing, but I'd bet that it has to do with all forms of input devices, USB, WiFi, or Bluetooth.

JiTouch and Better Touch Tool are not factors in this as far as I can tell. I shut them off, pulled their prefs out to the Desktop, pulled their preference panes out to the desktop, restarted the Mac, and the same problems persisted.

Personally, I think it's going to be an Apple fix, but if anyone discovers the real magic fix, I'll be all over that like ugly on an ape.

Shooshie

[musicinstincts]

Thank you for posting this!
I thought I was going to have to throw all my MIDI devices away. Phew!
Plugging into a hub instead of directly. I would never had figured that one out.
I was "almost starting to regret upgrading my mac pro. Almost...
Thanks!

[Babz]

Glad it worked for you, but sorry to hear this problem is still around.

What OS are you on? I had heard that this was supposed to be fixed as of Mavericks.

Babz