Freezing Audio tracks seems a very slow process...

[zandurian]

I hope you don't take this as me being obtuse, Zandurian, but the process is already automated...

All you have to do is get a time range selection with all the wanted tracks included, and invoke the Freeze Tracks command (takes no longer than 4-5 seconds). Go have a coffee, and when you come back everything is ready waiting for you... Is that not automated enough?

What exactly is inefficient about its current state?

I just expected faster rendering in freeze mode. And I wish multiple tracks in one VI would be able to freeze to separate tracks at once without having to set up elaborate aux tracks and multiple outs on the VI.

At least some here agree that the current state could stand to be more efficient :

by MIDI Life Crisis » 05 Mar 2013 12:37 am

Too bad that we can't freeze/bounce multi channels of all VIs to their respective tracks. UNless I'm missing something, unless you have that elaborate routing system in place, BTD on VI mixes the MIDI channels for that instantiation of the VI.

i know. I keep meaning to start a thread to get people's input on best way to do it, as tracklaying for soundtracks takes forever. I WISH there was a way just to freeze all tracks selected at once, no matter how many MIDI channels going to each VI. There's obviously a reason why not, I just can't think. It would save literally days.

So with people talking about saving "days" I can't be completely off base here can I? Maybe doodles thread of best ways to freeze needs to get started.

[FMiguelez]

I am sorry, but I must REALLY be missing something here...

People talking about taking days to freeze? This has got me scratching my head! Me no comprende.

I mean, when I print my VI MIDI tracks (I print by recording, BTW), all it takes me is one click on the first track's record button, slide down all the way without releasing the mouse to the last track (spanning dozens of audio tracks), and hit 3 on the numeric keypad. That's it!

The recording time equals the length of the cue, so if it's a 5 minute cue it takes 5 minutes to record ALL the instruments at the same time.
Worst case scenario is that I need to do a couple of passes if there are too many instruments for the computer to handle, but that would total no more than 10 minutes for a 5 minutes cue...

Granted. Everything is pre-routed and beautifully ordered in my template (took me months to think it out and perfect it , though). No matter how many or what combinations of instruments I use, they are always a click away to be record-ready.

Even if, for some strange reason, you choose not to use templates (or "dynamic" templates by loading chunks, or at least clippings), there are very quick ways to set all the MIDI channels and all the Aux and/or audio returns I/O with shortcuts with a couple of moves.
It's easy and fast (not as fast as having everything ready, but still, we are talking seconds or minutes, not even hours, let alone days).

I don't understand what Doodles meant by "taking days". Perhaps he can elaborate?
Unless he is doing 24 hour-long cues with 5 orchestras at the same time, I'm not sure what he means by "literarily days".

Zandurian, if I may suggest, why don't you tell us about a typical project and workflow for you and describe how you do it. Perhaps you could also include a screenshot of your mixer or TO window? That way I can really see the details you are talking about, and maybe we can come up with a good solution for you?

[FMiguelez]

Also, and although I haven't frozen multiple MIDI tracks together for a while now, I don't see what prevents one from freezing many MIDI tracks from one or many VIs. IIRC, it's totally doable!!

Again, the printing time is the same whether you freeze or record in real time. If for some reason that I can't remember, freezing is so complicated, why not simply record them?

[zandurian]

I am sorry, but I must REALLY be missing something here...

People talking about taking days to freeze? This has got me scratching my head! Me no comprende.

I mean, when I print my VI MIDI tracks (I print by recording, BTW), all it takes me is one click on the first track's record button, slide down all the way without releasing the mouse to the last track (spanning dozens of audio tracks), and hit 3 on the numeric keypad. That's it!

The recording time equals the length of the cue, so if it's a 5 minute cue it takes 5 minutes to record ALL the instruments at the same time.
Worst case scenario is that I need to do a couple of passes if there are too many instruments for the computer to handle, but that would total no more than 10 minutes for a 5 minutes cue...

Granted. Everything is pre-routed and beautifully ordered in my template (took me months to think it out and perfect it , though). No matter how many or what combinations of instruments I use, they are always a click away to be record-ready.

Even if, for some strange reason, you choose not to use templates (or "dynamic" templates by loading chunks, or at least clippings), there are very quick ways to set all the MIDI channels and all the Aux and/or audio returns I/O with shortcuts with a couple of moves.
It's easy and fast (not as fast as having everything ready, but still, we are talking seconds or minutes, not even hours, let alone days).

I don't understand what Doodles meant by "taking days". Perhaps he can elaborate?
Unless he is doing 24 hour-long cues with 5 orchestras at the same time, I'm not sure what he means by "literarily days".

Zandurian, if I may suggest, why don't you tell us about a typical project and workflow for you and describe how you do it. Perhaps you could also include a screenshot of your mixer or TO window? That way I can really see the details you are talking about, and maybe we can come up with a good solution for you?

Forget that! I just need to get tips on how to set things up. During this discussion I started to pick up that you had carefully planned templates to handle these things and yes - I do templates as well but my old computer could not handle multiple instances of Mach 5 v2 very well so I've been freezing V-tracks one at a time. I have a new 8 core system so it looks like the ticket is to use an instance per instrument, right? That or if Mach 5 v3 has multiple outs which could be routed to auxes? (don't know yet).

I love Superior drummer 2 but it has been a source of frustration because tracks would not freeze right in DP7 on my old computer (timing issues) so I set up the multiple outs to each feed an aux input and just record to disk it real time. I thought this was slower and that freezing would be lightening fast but now I know better. Another issue is that I DON'T always put things to hard drive at once so a fast multi-track bounce appeals to me (such as making a few changes in a drum track and doing a quick bounce to send the client home with an x-mix bounce. I hated to have to sit there and do it real time even though most songs are only 5 or 6 minutes max. The good news is that now with DP8 I can just bounce the whole x-mix to disk including VIs (did it twice - seems to be working) and I think bounce is supported for most VIs now (?) in those cases where I want to render to disk early on a particular instrument - time will tell whether they will actually bounce correctly.

Anyway - I'm getting ready for some big orchestrated stuff, including a couple of huge 10 -12 minute long overtures with 70 to 80 MIDI tracks feeding 40 to 50 instruments so that's why I freaked a little sitting here for five minutes freezing 1 single melodyne track (won't do THAT again! ). I've discovered that bounce works fine for those Melodyne tracks and it's fast.

Expand my mind dude! I just need to tone down my complaint department and learn to use what I have.

Currently I only have 4 VIs - SD2, Mach 5 (v.2 and 3) and Ivory. I will probably need to pick up a VI which specializes in orchestral instruments. Suggestions?

[FMiguelez]

Expand my mind dude! I just need to tone down my complaint department and learn to use what I have.

I don't have a problem with your tone. I think I sound worse when it's I who has a DP issue

Currently I only have 4 VIs - SD2, Mach 5 (v.2 and 3) and Ivory. I will probably need to pick up a VI which specializes in orchestral instruments. Suggestions?

My first suggestion would definitely be any of the VSL stuff. It doesn't get much better than that!

Now, depending on your budget, it might or might not be viable. I now there are members here who love Hollywood strings, EW, etc.

Frankly, I think we are at a level now where the differences in the high-end orchestral VIs is minimal, and you can get amazing results with any of them as long as you learn to program each to its full potential.

When you get one of those orchestral libraries, I think having a master template and a few variations of it is really essential. A must, especially if you will be working under tight deadlines.

You won't have to suffer through any of the issues we've been discussing anymore

Good luck!

[FMiguelez]

I have a new 8 core system so it looks like the ticket is to use an instance per instrument, right? That or if Mach 5 v3 has multiple outs which could be routed to auxes? (don't know yet).

I would opt for the latter. Much more efficient if you use around 8 to 16 or more instruments per instance with MF3. This obviously depends on what you load into it, but I wouldn't recommend one instrument per instance.

Also, you don't have to use Aux tracks for the returns... You can also use regular audio tracks and use Input Monitoring instead. This really changed my mixing game for the better, although, based on our discussion, I suspect it might be a bit contrary to what you will probably want.

[zandurian]

I have a new 8 core system so it looks like the ticket is to use an instance per instrument, right? That or if Mach 5 v3 has multiple outs which could be routed to auxes? (don't know yet).

I would opt for the latter. Much more efficient if you use around 8 to 16 or more instruments per instance with MF3. This obviously depends on what you load into it, but I wouldn't recommend one instrument per instance.

So Mach 5 3 does have multi-outs! I figured but hadn't looked at it yet.

Also, you don't have to use Aux tracks for the returns... You can also use regular audio tracks and use Input Monitoring instead. This really changed my mixing game for the better, although, based on our discussion, I suspect it might be a bit contrary to what you will probably want.

Actually - makes sense since it saves a step having to route an aux to an audio track for recording PLUS all your plugs are automatically there after recording them. Have you tried bouncing the mix without freezing any of the VIs? Just a live bounce to 2 track? I read a couple things that led me to think it may like that now.

[FMiguelez]

Actually - makes sense since it saves a step having to route an aux to an audio track for recording PLUS all your plugs are automatically there after recording them.

PLUS it also saves a bunch of redundant bundles
I'm not sure what you mean by "all your plugs are automatically there after recording them. "
When I record (not freeze) my MIDI tracks like that, automation and plugins do not get printed, so that's precisely the beauty of this method.

Have you tried bouncing the mix without freezing any of the VIs? Just a live bounce to 2 track? I read a couple things that led me to think it may like that now.

Like I said, I NEVER freeze (not anymore) anything.
Regarding your question, if I need a quick stero track with the full mix of everything, what I do is simply record the output of my external mixer into DP. This would include everything that makes a sound, including MIDI tracks for VIs (they don't need to be printed or frozen for this to work).

As a matter of fact, to do that I simply recall that scene in my DM-24, which is called "Quick Maqueta". I bring the audio track from a Clipping, which is as you can infer by now, prerouted for this purpose, and press 3. Bam! Done!

[doodles]

I don't understand what Doodles meant by "taking days". Perhaps he can elaborate?
Unless he is doing 24 hour-long cues with 5 orchestras at the same time, I'm not sure what he means by "literarily days".

Hey FM! This is why I said I keep meaning to start a separate thread, as don't want to hijack everyone else's...

Am in middle of soundtrack at the mo, so no time to go into detail, but in short. 3 computers with 32 gigs of samples in VE Pro on each, Main DP rig running about 30 or so VE Pro plugs, each running 16 MIDI channels. So that's my go-to template. Need all tracks printed separately to take for final mixes. Obviously don't use all MIDI tracks, but would say that an average orchestral and beats q would have about 60 or so tracks. DP crashes (memory prob - Im on 7.24) when trying to freeze too many tracks at once. So even if you managed to freeze 6 or 7 at a time, it takes ages. 100 mins of score times 60 -80 tracks a q = lots of time. If there was a "freeze all at once" button it would be amazing! I know I could set up template with a gazillion auxes for ve pro, but not realistic with this many tracks in template.

all advice welcome, but will get into proper thread about this once score is finished in a month or 2!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

While we're talking about freezing, as long as ALL your tracks are exported that way, they should synchronize (if not sit on the timeline correctly - see link). If you export others as a bounce or realtime record you sync may be off a few ms.

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 04#p452004

I've seen similar issues before when using plugs for noise reduction. Haven't used freeze in a while and thought I noticed some delay in earlier versions of DP but it was never that big of an issue. For some, it's still not, but when you have to have everything line up precisely... well, you just have to.

Additionally, some of the artifacts I get in bouncing certain complex VIs (whether hosted in MachFive or UVI - yeah, I'm talkin' to you True Keys Piano) are there whether I BTD of freeze, but not so much in realtime record.

Add to that the problem I had in a studio last week where PT 10 didn't spot the audio to the right location (I didn't "have time" to make an OMF, a mistake I'll never repeat again) and in even a modest post session of just a dozen tracks or less, you could have a real disaster on your hands.

My point in connection to this thread is this:

However you export your VIs, be consistent in the format (BTD, freeze, realtime). Given all I've seen, heard, and experienced I am now leaning toward realtime for complex instruments and setups, and BTD for more reliable and smaller VI demands.

Also, given that freezing takes at least as long as realtime in any instance I've seen personally, freezing makes little sense. If I am understanding the reason for it at all, it's to basically bounce the audio but w/o FX plugs. Maybe someone could clarify (I think FM already did but can't find it) that I understand that correctly.

[FMiguelez]

Hey FM! This is why I said I keep meaning to start a separate thread, as don't want to hijack everyone else's...

Am in middle of soundtrack at the mo, so no time to go into detail, but in short. 3 computers with 32 gigs of samples in VE Pro on each, Main DP rig running about 30 or so VE Pro plugs, each running 16 MIDI channels. So that's my go-to template. Need all tracks printed separately to take for final mixes. Obviously don't use all MIDI tracks, but would say that an average orchestral and beats q would have about 60 or so tracks. DP crashes (memory prob - Im on 7.24) when trying to freeze too many tracks at once. So even if you managed to freeze 6 or 7 at a time, it takes ages. 100 mins of score times 60 -80 tracks a q = lots of time. If there was a "freeze all at once" button it would be amazing! I know I could set up template with a gazillion auxes for ve pro, but not realistic with this many tracks in template.

all advice welcome, but will get into proper thread about this once score is finished in a month or 2!

Hi, Doodles.
Thanks for clarifying, but I must confess I really can't see what the problem is...

My template is quite large too, and it never takes me longer than the duration of the cue to print all my MIDI tracks individually.

Can't you just print them in real time? You just need to set up some smart routing tricks, but it's totally doable. Why do you insist on using Freeze? Real time printing gives you the same results, only faster, better, and more reliably.

It seems that there have been mainly 2 issues in this thread:
1.- That Freezing is not faster-than-realtime
2.- That DP crashes when freezing more than a few tracks at the same time.

For 1, that's the way it is. It is a real time process and one can not expect it to go any faster (as opposed to BTD, for the reasons I've outlined up-thread).
For 2, THAT is an issue. DP should be able to freeze 3, 15, or 100 tracks at the same time with no problems at all.
Doodles, this seems to be your one and real problem, correct? Otherwise, if it worked as it should, you'd be happily freezing away all your tracks with no wasted time, yes?

If so, MOTU needs to know about this, because it should not be happening at all.
Also, if you take into account this other disturbing freezing-realted thread, MOTU must really roll up their sleeves and find out what is going on with the Freeze command.

Basically, people are seeing crashes when bouncing multiple tracks at the same time, AND other users are experiencing totally inconsistent timing issues when freezing, according to this thread:
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=53597

THAT I find very disturbing. I never trusted BTD or freezing, and this seems to only confirm my suspicions that these methods are not always reliable and are prone to timing/phasing issues.

MOTU?????

Also, given that freezing takes at least as long as realtime in any instance I've seen personally, freezing makes little sense. If I am understanding the reason for it at all, it's to basically bounce the audio but w/o FX plugs. Maybe someone could clarify (I think FM already did but can't find it) that I understand that correctly.

Some members seemed a bit confused between bouncing and freezing.

Basically, freezing works AT THE TRACK LEVEL. It'll print the track's automation and plugins, but it will NOT print anything that was delivered via sends. This means no reverb, no delay, and no automation/plugins in any submix or stem aux tracks.

Bouncing, OTOH, will include all of that, providing that the right tracks are play-enabled. But doing this track by track would not be efficient or desirable at all. This is not BTD's Raison d'être. BTD was designed to "merge" or print more than one track at a time (i.e., your final mix, or stems).

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Thanks, FM. It's an important distinction.

[zandurian]

I'm not sure what you mean by "all your plugs are automatically there after recording them. "
When I record (not freeze) my MIDI tracks like that, automation and plugins do not get printed, so that's precisely the beauty of this method.

Already inserted. I've been turning them all off - freezing then dragging the plug-ins into the new track.

[FMiguelez]

I'm not sure what you mean by "all your plugs are automatically there after recording them. "
When I record (not freeze) my MIDI tracks like that, automation and plugins do not get printed, so that's precisely the beauty of this method.

Already inserted. I've been turning them all off - freezing then dragging the plug-ins into the new track.

That sounds extremely convoluted, if you ask me...

Why do you need to "turn them off" (I assume you mean the plugins), then freeze, then drag the plugs into new tracks?

No wonder you are unhappy with that workflow, Zandurian

[zandurian]

I'm not sure what you mean by "all your plugs are automatically there after recording them. "
When I record (not freeze) my MIDI tracks like that, automation and plugins do not get printed, so that's precisely the beauty of this method.

Already inserted. I've been turning them all off - freezing then dragging the plug-ins into the new track.

That sounds extremely convoluted, if you ask me...

Why do you need to "turn them off" (I assume you mean the plugins), then freeze, then drag the plugs into new tracks?

No wonder you are unhappy with that workflow, Zandurian

Yes, it's convoluted which is my point. That is how the "regular" freeze function works. If you don't bypass the effects on your VI tracks it prints them - so since I just wanted audio and wanted to continue to tweak the plugs till the end I had to bypass. The solution is to not use the freeze function, but record live as you do. Now - I was already doing that as explained earlier BUT was using AUX tracks which still required the bypass/re-add plugs nonsense. As soon as you mentioned the input button I realized what I was missing . I thought that just let you hear the input signal feeding the tracks. If I had known you got to hear the effects too I would have tried it. Great tip!

BUT my complaint about the freeze function stands as evidenced by the fact that you don't use it.

If so, MOTU needs to know about this, because it should not be happening at all.
Also, if you take into account this other disturbing freezing-realted thread, MOTU must really roll up their sleeves and find out what is going on with the Freeze command.

Basically, people are seeing crashes when bouncing multiple tracks at the same time, AND other users are experiencing totally inconsistent timing issues when freezing, according to this thread:
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=53597

THAT I find very disturbing. I never trusted BTD or freezing, and this seems to only confirm my suspicions that these methods are not always reliable and are prone to timing/phasing issues.

MOTU?????

So again my thread title is operative. Don't use freeze just use real time recording as you do (on audio tracks with input enabled - not auxes, do not "freeze" do not bounce, just record the tracks and it works. all others work sometimes or not usable).

So my rant was/is that in this super computer day and age I can only do (with DP) the same as my 2" tape machine could do as far as "recording" audio tracks. Real time.

My poor workflow is (admittedly) a lack of spending time on finding workarounds - as you have done and have (thankfully) shared (thank you!) .

So: to recap:

It would be nice if the actual "freeze selected tracks" function would:
1. Work as fast as processor speeds allow.
2. automatically separate separate patches to separate tracks.
because "Freezing audio tracks seems a very slow process"

Now - enough of that - I'm sure we all agree. I think you have found the best workaround - don't use the freeze function. Just route each individual out to an audio track and select "input". When it comes time to commit a VI to HD, hit "record".