What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

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FMiguelez
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by FMiguelez »

markpk wrote: But like you, I am having CC's other than 7 and 10 continue playing even when the automation-enable button on the MIDI Track is un-checked. I've used DP for over 20 years - this is NOT normal behavior. And the tech support guy confirmed that this should not be happening.
Wow!
Thank you for this info, Markpk.
I will also open a techlink at MOTU's site. Perhaps I was not that naive, after all...
markpk wrote:So ... I hope we'll have an answer soon. Honestly, I'm surprised no one else has encountered this weird behavior.
I am actually more surprised about the lack of responses and interest about this topic / thread...
I know we have a few experts who use sophisticated CC stuff all the time, but apparently this has been of no interest to them :(
markpk wrote:On a related note - I also have a Novation controller (the Zero SL MKII). The thing is truly a wonder, although it has some quirks and a steep learning curve.
Agreed. It took me a few weeks to master it (automap and advanced mode), but it was so worth it. I don't know how I could work without it :)
markpk wrote:Question: I wanted to ask you if you've been able to use the controller successfully with Stylus RMX. That's the one plug-in that has been problematic for me. Have you got it to work? (I've opted to use RMX as a "MIDI client" instead, which is working out well, although I'd rather have the automap-wrapped version running.)
I haven't really tried it, but the few tests I did with Stylus it worked fine.
In general, I always prefer to either, use advanced mode (with my own mappings), or tweak the automap settings for any given plug/instrument. I have not found even ONE automap setting I like.
For instance, all the automap settings for Waves are really bad. I ended up deleting them and doing my own from scratch.

Is there a particular problem you are having with Novation/Stylus? Tell me about it, perhaps I could help
markpk wrote:Let's keep in touch about the crazy MIDI CC behavior. I really want to get this solved.
It will be MY PLEASURE! Let's compare notes about MOTU's responses to our techlinks. The moment you or I hear from them, let's post it here.

DP would be a million times more useful (for this) if it worked like the manual implies!

Thanks for your interest, MarkPk 8)
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by toodamnhip »

Dan Worley wrote:Forget about 7 and 10, CCs are not mixer parameters you can automate. They're stored in the track just as MIDI notes are. This is why you have to put the tracks into record to capture them (or you draw them in).

When you disable automation playback for a track, that won't disable the controllers stored in the track, just like it won't disable the notes.

You can have panning (10) and volume (7) controllers in a track too, but it won't affect the mixer's fader or knob for that track.

Anyway, sorry if I'm misunderstanding.
If you put a CC on a separate track going to the same MIDI channel as the MIDI notes, and then UN play enable that CC track, will it then STOP sending that CC data?
If so, the solution seems to be to put all important, labor intensive CC data on it;s own track
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by FMiguelez »

toodamnhip wrote:
Dan Worley wrote:Forget about 7 and 10, CCs are not mixer parameters you can automate. They're stored in the track just as MIDI notes are. This is why you have to put the tracks into record to capture them (or you draw them in).

When you disable automation playback for a track, that won't disable the controllers stored in the track, just like it won't disable the notes.

You can have panning (10) and volume (7) controllers in a track too, but it won't affect the mixer's fader or knob for that track.

Anyway, sorry if I'm misunderstanding.
If you put a CC on a separate track going to the same MIDI channel as the MIDI notes, and then UN play enable that CC track, will it then STOP sending that CC data?
If so, the solution seems to be to put all important, labor intensive CC data on it;s own track
I've tried it.
While it works AS A WORK AROUND, it is not very workflow friendly having to deal with more than one track per instrument... I already have more than 100 MIDI instruments tracks... I don't want to deal with 200 of them! Doing this would effectively DOUBLE your track count for nothing :?

EVEN THEN, you can still not separate or selectively bypass CCs. It's an all-or-nothing thing. I mean, they don't even appear in the Automation list.
We would need one track per CC (dozens of tracks per instrument). Not only would this be ridiculous... they still wouldn't show in the Global Automation list.

I really think this needs to be looked at by MOTU.
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by tommymandel »

So it is a bug, and not a 'feature' - thanks, for clearing up my confusion. . . And from reading this thread, it seems that MOTU is aware of it as well, so a fix will (hopefully) be sewn into v.8. Version 8, remember version 8? :lol: Poor MOTU: jumping thru "New OS" hoops on both platforms.
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What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by frankf »

What about using Show Active Layer Only command? Not in front of DP right now, but I'd try making CC1 active layer, invoking the command, then checking if I-beam and/or lasso selections will delete only cc1. At least you can keep everything in a single track. I've wanted more cc options in the View Filter myself. All these are work arounds
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by FMiguelez »

tommymandel wrote:So it is a bug, and not a 'feature' - thanks, for clearing up my confusion. . . And from reading this thread, it seems that MOTU is aware of it as well, so a fix will (hopefully) be sewn into v.8. Version 8, remember version 8? :lol: Poor MOTU: jumping thru "New OS" hoops on both platforms.
Ha!
If it's a bug then it's one hell of a bug :shock:

I understand CCs 7 and 10 (and mute) are the only ones that are hardwired into the mixer, but this should not be a reason not to have them work and behave like we expect.

To deal with all this I do have to use workarounds. I can still sequence and program the way I need to, but it takes twice as long at least. And it's not elegant.
The way it is now, if you need to bypass one kind of CC, the only way is to either, temporarily delete, it or move it to a dedicated track... not practical when already dealing with several dozen regular MIDI tracks.

For instance, VSL's stuff requires anywhere from 5 to 10 CCs to make the instruments sing (in addition to keyswitches). That's why I feel particularly bitter about this current issue with DP. And it's also why I INSIST we need optional MIDI regions too, so we can quickly move things around without being worried our carefully crafted automation gets out of whack, despite some members' resistance to this feature.

I REALLY hope MOTU will fix this in DP8. Those are the things I'm really looking forward for this new version. We'll find out soon enough, I guess.
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by tommymandel »

I hear ya, FM. hmm...but now I'm confused again. I thought I saw in this thread somewhere, that DP used to work differently: that there was a time when all CC's responded to automation in the way you rightfully expect it should. I'm'a gonna go and reread the thread again. brb 8)
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by FMiguelez »

Honestly, I couldn't tell if CCs were working the way they are supposed to in the past... At that time I only used 7 and 10, and occasionally 1.

The manual seems to agree with me (it never says anything about 7 and 10 being the only CCs that work as expected).

If it was a "simple" oversight with DP7 then it should be easy enough for MOTU to fix it.

I would stop bitching about this if I knew FOR SURE what's going on (bug or shortcoming).. Well, then I'd expect this to be fixed or added as an urgent feature request...

I had opened 2 tech tickets about this long ago, but they haven't been answered :|

:unicorn: ???
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by magicd »

To maintain consistency in the mixer, CC#7 and #10 are treated the same way as volume and pan automation for an audio track. If the track automation button is disengaged, CC# 7 and 10 will not play back from the MIDI track.

The Auto button does not affect any other CC data besides ##7 and #10. There is no way to temporarily disable other types of MIDI CC data.

CC# 7 and #10 are recorded into the track like any other MIDI data.

Dave
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by FMiguelez »

Thank you for chiming in, Dave! :)
magicd wrote:To maintain consistency in the mixer, CC#7 and #10 are treated the same way as volume and pan automation for an audio track. If the track automation button is disengaged, CC# 7 and 10 will not play back from the MIDI track.
Yes. This works fine.
magicd wrote:The Auto button does not affect any other CC data besides ##7 and #10. There is no way to temporarily disable other types of MIDI CC data.
And that's the problem I've been talking about right there.

It would be lovely if ALL CCs worked as #7 and #10, especially with the View Filter, the Global Automation settings (so one can bypass CCs selectively), and the mixer modes (the new Latch modes and the usual ones -they don't work at the moment).

It looks like this will have to be a feature request for DP8. Up until now there was probably not so much need to have it, but with today's complex VIs, which use LOTS of CCs, this would be a FANTASTIC (and needed) DP feature. Then we wouldn't need to keep doing the mentioned workarounds when working with all these other controllers.

But I'm glad I finally know this is NOT a bug, but more like a DP shortcoming that hopefully will be addressed in the future.

I think I can stop whining now :)

Thank you for clarifying, MagicD!
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by tommymandel »

Hey! What about using DP's fabled and underused (by me anyway) SEARCH FEATURE? to grab the specific CC's you want to mute?
PS. Thanks Magic Dave for clarifying!
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by tommymandel »

PS. I know, being a Novation ReMOTE_SL user myself (I somehow have three: a 25, a 37 and the newcomer, a 61, all Mk I's...) how many different CC's can come into play. It's really cool. So is the current S.O.T.A. approach = recording the moves onto the MIDI Track, all together as a performance, and then cranking out the pencil tool with all its Modifier- variations (Shooshie's the master of them...) and fine tuning that way?
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by toodamnhip »

Though the workaround of making tracks for CCs is cumbersome, there are several points I’d like to emphasize.
1) Folder make organization easier.
2) Today;s computers should not suffer from a large MIDI track count.
3) Only use a separate track for crucial, labor intensive CCs such as CC 1 when automating string vol in LASS.
4) You could probably design a template that is subsequently assignable to a specific MIDI track. It could have A- notes B- CC 1 C- CC 2, 3, 4 etc. All in a folder.
Assign all tracks in the folder to a cello in Vienna and just change MIDI tracks on each pass of automation, stay out of overdub mode will allow you to erase automation you don;t like on each pass.

Additionally, I think DP excels at making custom controller mixing boards and faders. I have not done this in ages but I created an elaborate mixing board back in the day for my VS 880 digital recorder. I was able to automate everything from reverb send to volume and pan.
My custom console was better than the one Roland eventually came out with by far.
I wonder of one can make a custom console fader that sends CC1 and other control data and if making a custom fader brings new edibility to the table?
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by FMiguelez »

toodamnhip wrote:Though the workaround of making tracks for CCs is cumbersome, there are several points I’d like to emphasize.
1) Folder make organization easier.
2) Today;s computers should not suffer from a large MIDI track count.
3) Only use a separate track for crucial, labor intensive CCs such as CC 1 when automating string vol in LASS.
4) You could probably design a template that is subsequently assignable to a specific MIDI track. It could have A- notes B- CC 1 C- CC 2, 3, 4 etc. All in a folder.
Assign all tracks in the folder to a cello in Vienna and just change MIDI tracks on each pass of automation, stay out of overdub mode will allow you to erase automation you don;t like on each pass.
Yup.

All that (and some more stuff) is part of my current bag of workarounds to deal with all this.

I must confess it's boring, tedious, unnecessarily complicated and slow :boohoo:
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Post by toodamnhip »

FMiguelez wrote:
toodamnhip wrote:Though the workaround of making tracks for CCs is cumbersome, there are several points I’d like to emphasize.
1) Folder make organization easier.
2) Today;s computers should not suffer from a large MIDI track count.
3) Only use a separate track for crucial, labor intensive CCs such as CC 1 when automating string vol in LASS.
4) You could probably design a template that is subsequently assignable to a specific MIDI track. It could have A- notes B- CC 1 C- CC 2, 3, 4 etc. All in a folder.
Assign all tracks in the folder to a cello in Vienna and just change MIDI tracks on each pass of automation, stay out of overdub mode will allow you to erase automation you don;t like on each pass.
Yup.

All that (and some more stuff) is part of my current bag of workarounds to deal with all this.

I must confess it's boring, tedious, unnecessarily complicated and slow :boohoo:
Well, at least there IS a workaround.
I think these software companies are sometimes very slow to listen to what we need, but the good thing is we all know enough about the program to figure out a workaround and the program is versatile enough to allow for a workaround.
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