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What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

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What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby FMiguelez » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:42 pm

Hello.

Now that I've been experimenting with my Novation SL-MkII, I've been noticing some automation anomalies. They are not necessarily related to this controller because the behavior is the same whether I use the controller or the mouse.

Basically, these 3 things are annoying me:

1.- Recording automation works differently for CCs that are NOT 7 or 10… I actually need to record enable THE MIDI TRACK (not the automation record-enalbe little button), otherwise nothing gets recorded.

With Volume and Pan, you only need to record-enable the automation button and press PLAY and automate away. But any other CC, such as 21, 22, etc., don't get recorded unless I press 3 to record on the track.

With plug-in parameters in AUDIO tracks, this works normally. The problem is only MIDI CCs.

Is this NORMAL?!?!?!?!

Because of this, then point 2 seems to not work either...

2.- Also, when I automate any CC other than Pan and Volume, Latch and Touch do not work normally. I expect that the moment I let go of the hardware controller (or release the mouse), the parameter being automated returns with a ramp to where it was originally. But they don't. They stay wherever I release the mouse or the controller.

With plug-in parameters in AUDIO tracks, this works normally. The problem is only MIDI CCs.

Is this how it's supposed to be too? Something tells me I'm missing somethin'

3.- No matter what I do, un-enabling automation playback does not work (except for 7 and 10). All other CCs keep responding, even if I disable the button from the mixer and/or GLOBALLY in the Automation Setup.

With plug-in parameters in AUDIO tracks, this works normally. The problem is only MIDI CCs.

WHY?!?!?!

I'm working on some templates and I just want to set and forget. If what I describe above is normal, then I can dismiss it (or pretend I don't mind) and move on. Otherwise I REALLY want to make it work.

I haven't slept for almost 2 days, so perhaps that explains it and I'm missing something very obvious? Please tell me this is the case...

Thanks for your help!
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.9.2 / DP 8.06
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Platinum, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VE Pro, etc.

---------------------------

"There's random genetic variation, and non-random survival, and non-random reproduction, which is why, as the generations go by, animals get better at doing what they do. That is quintessentially non-random". ― Richard Dawkins
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby tommymandel » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:57 pm

I will check on my gear tomorrow eve, FM,(with a ReMOTE SL Mk I ) but hopefully you'll have an answer by then. Did it used to work before either the Mk II or 7.24? My first reaction is that MIDI CC's aren't automation in the same sense that DP thinks of its automation, but I'm unsure.
Good luck until someone more in the know than me pops in to help. Otherwise I'll do my best to further confuse the issue in around 24hrs :mrgreen:
DP 8.07 8core3Ghz 16GB/10.6.8, two 24i/o's, Digi 002R, PhonicHelixFW18, MicroExpressUSB--- MBP 2011 16GB/10.6.8, ReMOTE SL---DP 8.07 SupDrmr, Mainstage, jBridgeM, SampleTron, OB-SEM V, Miroslav, ScarbeeEEP, PPG.v3, Jupiter-8v2, WAVESTATION, Martinic Combo V, Fab4, Pro53; Nomad, Soundtoys, AdrenaLinnIII box +Plug-In,NI GuitarRig, Tempest - PT8Hardware rig at http://www.tommymandel.com/famous.html/tmrig.html"
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby tommymandel » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:00 pm

hey, I just noticed: in 1 minute, I will have been a member here for exactly 7 years! what a great waste of time. JUST KIDDING! Thank you, my DP brothers, James, (and occasional sisters) for a real community, and great way to find out how this stuff works.
:D :mrgreen: :!: :idea: :D
DP 8.07 8core3Ghz 16GB/10.6.8, two 24i/o's, Digi 002R, PhonicHelixFW18, MicroExpressUSB--- MBP 2011 16GB/10.6.8, ReMOTE SL---DP 8.07 SupDrmr, Mainstage, jBridgeM, SampleTron, OB-SEM V, Miroslav, ScarbeeEEP, PPG.v3, Jupiter-8v2, WAVESTATION, Martinic Combo V, Fab4, Pro53; Nomad, Soundtoys, AdrenaLinnIII box +Plug-In,NI GuitarRig, Tempest - PT8Hardware rig at http://www.tommymandel.com/famous.html/tmrig.html"
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby FMiguelez » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:04 pm

Hello, Tommy.

Thank you for chiming in and for your offer to check it with your setup.

To be honest, I can't remember how CC automation used to work... I had never used it the way I do now with my controller. And my setup has changed, so I'm not sure, that's why I'm so confused.

I already discarded the possibility to be only a keyboard controller issue, because the exact same thing happens if I do it manually by moving parameters with the mouse.

I know we have in the forum a few synth tweakers and experts who do this kind of thing all the time, so hopefully they will clear this up for us :)

I look forward to your findings, my friend 8)

Congrats on your 7 years with us, BTW!
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.9.2 / DP 8.06
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Platinum, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VE Pro, etc.

---------------------------

"There's random genetic variation, and non-random survival, and non-random reproduction, which is why, as the generations go by, animals get better at doing what they do. That is quintessentially non-random". ― Richard Dawkins
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby FMiguelez » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:08 pm

tommymandel wrote:My first reaction is that MIDI CC's aren't automation in the same sense that DP thinks of its automation, but I'm unsure.


Me too. I'm unsure about it as well.
Something in the back of my mind tells me that might be the case :?
Hopefully not and this is due to overlooking something simple!

Man, I need some sleep...
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.9.2 / DP 8.06
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Platinum, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VE Pro, etc.

---------------------------

"There's random genetic variation, and non-random survival, and non-random reproduction, which is why, as the generations go by, animals get better at doing what they do. That is quintessentially non-random". ― Richard Dawkins
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby FMiguelez » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:17 am

FWIW, I just re- :rtfmmad: , the whole Automation chapter, and it didn't mention anything about it not being possible, so what I described should be possible and totally doable. I mean, this is DP7, right? :?

Most examples deal with audio automation, but I didn't find anything about MIDI CCs not working the way I want.

Oh, and I created another thread about another related thing too. Latch Range and Touch Range don't work at all, not with MIDI and not with audio:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48461&p=409186#p409186

Is it just my system, or what's going on? :?
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.9.2 / DP 8.06
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Platinum, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VE Pro, etc.

---------------------------

"There's random genetic variation, and non-random survival, and non-random reproduction, which is why, as the generations go by, animals get better at doing what they do. That is quintessentially non-random". ― Richard Dawkins
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby Dan Worley » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:44 am

Forget about 7 and 10, CCs are not mixer parameters you can automate. They're stored in the track just as MIDI notes are. This is why you have to put the tracks into record to capture them (or you draw them in).

When you disable automation playback for a track, that won't disable the controllers stored in the track, just like it won't disable the notes.

You can have panning (10) and volume (7) controllers in a track too, but it won't affect the mixer's fader or knob for that track.

Anyway, sorry if I'm misunderstanding.
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby FMiguelez » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:53 pm

Thanks for replying, Dan.

I think you understood correctly.

I didn't know CCs were stored in the track like MIDI notes are. Is this really so?

And why are CCs 7 and 10 different from say, 24 or whatever else? They are just point events stored at any given time, correct? So why do they behave differently? :?

Actually, I NEVER thought I would say this, but reading the manual has actually confused me more than helped me...

The way it explains these things sound like you can use ANY CC with any mix mode in the exact same way as audio.
There's a paragraph were it even tells you one does not have to record-arm the TRACK, that simply enabling the rec-automation button and pressing play works (DP7 manual, page 788, under Recording Automation).
It mentions no caveats at all with this and does not mention any exceptions with MIDI.

So is the manual wrong, or am I not getting it, or there's a problem, or what? :?

All I want to do is basically:
- Unify the behavior of recording automation for ALL CCs and tracks, just like it reads in the DP7 manual.
- Be able to use Touch and Latch modes like they work with audio (according to the manual this should work with MIDI too).
- Be able to use Range-Latch and Range-Touch for MIDI and/or Audio (it's not working here).
- Be able to selectively bypass or allow/prohibit any CCs automation playback when ever I need to (pages 782 and 786).

Is that unreasonable?
Is the behavior I'm experiencing normal then? (Hope not! Don't think so...)
Is the manual "wrong", deadly wrong and inaccurate? I didn't find anything saying "this feature works only for audio and not any MIDI CC"...
Or are my reading skills like a child's and I'm misinterpreting things?

Thanks for any further help and clarification :)

:smash:
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.9.2 / DP 8.06
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Platinum, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VE Pro, etc.

---------------------------

"There's random genetic variation, and non-random survival, and non-random reproduction, which is why, as the generations go by, animals get better at doing what they do. That is quintessentially non-random". ― Richard Dawkins
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby tommymandel » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:13 pm

Hi FM, I think I do recall what Dan W. says to be my experience as well :( ; but regardless, now I've hooked my Novation ReMOTE 37SL (Mk 1) into the MBP via USB cable. Enabled a MIDI track in DP, and I think we're s.out of luck, because:
:arrow: When I DIS-abled Record on the track, I realized I had to hit Play on the Transport, even to get the music going. And then, even though the track's Automation was Record Enabled (blinking red), as the track played and I moved faders (which are very programmed to send MIDI CC info) - the Automation Record (red button) kept blinking - it didn't go Solid Red (like China.) And yes, the CC info did get recorded onto the (MIDI) track. I could see it in the TO window...but ONLY when I actually popped the track into (regular) Record.
This tells me that DP does not consider that type of data to be "Automation" data, in the sense of being able to use latch, etc. I guess, as DW posted, you can AUTOMATE these MIDI CC's, but it's not the same flavor of automation as what you get when you automate the fader or send knobs in the Mixer Window. Or the plug in parameters in the plug-in windows. Come to think of it, there are many many things that you can 'latch automate' - onscreen anyway. In fact, this gives me another idea for ya:
:idea: What if you build a custom console, and map the Novation CC numbers that you are going to be sending in, to the parameters in DP that you plan to be controlling? I remember 1/2 of how to do that. :oops:
DP 8.07 8core3Ghz 16GB/10.6.8, two 24i/o's, Digi 002R, PhonicHelixFW18, MicroExpressUSB--- MBP 2011 16GB/10.6.8, ReMOTE SL---DP 8.07 SupDrmr, Mainstage, jBridgeM, SampleTron, OB-SEM V, Miroslav, ScarbeeEEP, PPG.v3, Jupiter-8v2, WAVESTATION, Martinic Combo V, Fab4, Pro53; Nomad, Soundtoys, AdrenaLinnIII box +Plug-In,NI GuitarRig, Tempest - PT8Hardware rig at http://www.tommymandel.com/famous.html/tmrig.html"
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby tommymandel » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:26 pm

More "bad news':'
Under SetUp/Automation Setup - the only 3 parameters that appear in the window's MIDI column are Volume, Pan and Track Mute.
Further corroboration (that for MIDI Tracks anyway) other CC data can be recorded, viewed, edited, and played back - giving you 'automation' capabilities - but not in the same way as we've grown accustomed to on Audio Tracks.
DP 8.07 8core3Ghz 16GB/10.6.8, two 24i/o's, Digi 002R, PhonicHelixFW18, MicroExpressUSB--- MBP 2011 16GB/10.6.8, ReMOTE SL---DP 8.07 SupDrmr, Mainstage, jBridgeM, SampleTron, OB-SEM V, Miroslav, ScarbeeEEP, PPG.v3, Jupiter-8v2, WAVESTATION, Martinic Combo V, Fab4, Pro53; Nomad, Soundtoys, AdrenaLinnIII box +Plug-In,NI GuitarRig, Tempest - PT8Hardware rig at http://www.tommymandel.com/famous.html/tmrig.html"
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby FMiguelez » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:01 pm

Tommy!

You ROCK, man! Thank you so much for taking the time to test these things 8)

I need to go out for a moment. Let me digest what you wrote and I'll get back to you shortly.

Thanks!
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.9.2 / DP 8.06
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Platinum, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VE Pro, etc.

---------------------------

"There's random genetic variation, and non-random survival, and non-random reproduction, which is why, as the generations go by, animals get better at doing what they do. That is quintessentially non-random". ― Richard Dawkins
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby FMiguelez » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:11 pm

Tommy!
Sorry it took me this long to answer :oops:

I have been doing some tests too, and it looks like you are correct on all counts. And I was totally mislead about all this CC / DP mixer business.
How could I be so incorrect in my assumptions and be so naive???? :(

I mean, I can live with this, but it would be awesome if it worked the way I thought.

Just out of curiosity... do other DAWs do any of this? What would be needed for DP to behave like I expected?
Does anybody wish for this? Or are you guys simply accustomed to the way DP treats CCs?

Anyway. I just want to thank you for taking the time for trying these things out and for trying to help me 8)
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.9.2 / DP 8.06
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Platinum, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VE Pro, etc.

---------------------------

"There's random genetic variation, and non-random survival, and non-random reproduction, which is why, as the generations go by, animals get better at doing what they do. That is quintessentially non-random". ― Richard Dawkins
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby tommymandel » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:33 am

Thanks, FM, and to Dan too, whom I was basically echoing. or is that DDLing? (Why are they 2 different MAS plugins anyway? oh- maybe the cross-delay capabilities of the one(and the Xtra taps)(and technocolor features) of the other) And while we're at it, how do you get the 'other' GUI to show on the Multimode Filter plugin? - I forgot and can't find it. <edit- see next post>
FM, I've not yet felt the need for the enhanced level of automation that's on your MOTU XmasList. Maybe if I used the ReMOTE SL more with DP, not just with Mainstage, I'd want to be able to work that way too. It's a cool idea, so long as it didn't get confusing with all those non-viewable parameters latching and unlatching, etc.
Happy Holidays!
Last edited by tommymandel on Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
DP 8.07 8core3Ghz 16GB/10.6.8, two 24i/o's, Digi 002R, PhonicHelixFW18, MicroExpressUSB--- MBP 2011 16GB/10.6.8, ReMOTE SL---DP 8.07 SupDrmr, Mainstage, jBridgeM, SampleTron, OB-SEM V, Miroslav, ScarbeeEEP, PPG.v3, Jupiter-8v2, WAVESTATION, Martinic Combo V, Fab4, Pro53; Nomad, Soundtoys, AdrenaLinnIII box +Plug-In,NI GuitarRig, Tempest - PT8Hardware rig at http://www.tommymandel.com/famous.html/tmrig.html"
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby tommymandel » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:49 am

oops, my bad - I was confusing the MOTU Sonic Modulator plugin with the Multimode Filter, and it's easy to see the GUI switching button. Sorry :oops:
Incidentally the Sonic Modulator only appears on Mono audio tracks, as far as I can see.
DP 8.07 8core3Ghz 16GB/10.6.8, two 24i/o's, Digi 002R, PhonicHelixFW18, MicroExpressUSB--- MBP 2011 16GB/10.6.8, ReMOTE SL---DP 8.07 SupDrmr, Mainstage, jBridgeM, SampleTron, OB-SEM V, Miroslav, ScarbeeEEP, PPG.v3, Jupiter-8v2, WAVESTATION, Martinic Combo V, Fab4, Pro53; Nomad, Soundtoys, AdrenaLinnIII box +Plug-In,NI GuitarRig, Tempest - PT8Hardware rig at http://www.tommymandel.com/famous.html/tmrig.html"
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Re: What's going on with MIDI automation? Or with me??

Postby markpk » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:52 pm

Hi FMiguelez,

I've been watching your thread about this as I am having a problem just like yours. I've confirmed with MOTU tech support that this is some sort of a bug. They have opened a "tech link" for this issue and the support guy was able to re-create the issue on their system at MOTU.

The important thing to understand is that there are 2 distinct kinds of automation in DP: There is audio-based automation, and there is also CC-based automation. Controller 7 (volume), and controlled 10 (pan) as well as Mute are common to both forms of automation. I think this is why the Volume and Pan automation is behaving correctly (it is most likely responding in it's audio-based incarnation). But like you, I am having CC's other than 7 and 10 continue playing even when the automation-enable button on the MIDI Track is un-checked. I've used DP for over 20 years - this is NOT normal behavior. And the tech support guy confirmed that this should not be happening.

So ... I hope we'll have an answer soon. Honestly, I'm surprised no one else has encountered this weird behavior.

On a related note - I also have a Novation controller (the Zero SL MKII). The thing is truly a wonder, although it has some quirks and a steep learning curve. Well worth it though. Unfortunately, Novation has created a great product with really crappy documentation. Many of the problems people have are related to not really understanding how to properly use the controller (yes, it's complicated -- but that's because automating a variety of plugins from many different manufacturers is a complicated affair.)

Question: I wanted to ask you if you've been able to use the controller successfully with Stylus RMX. That's the one plug-in that has been problematic for me. Have you got it to work? (I've opted to use RMX as a "MIDI client" instead, which is working out well, although I'd rather have the automap-wrapped version running.)

Let's keep in touch about the crazy MIDI CC behavior. I really want to get this solved.
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