Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

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wonder
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Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by wonder »

Hello all ...

I'm programming a live show for a new Electro-Pop group and I'm also designing their light show ... new for me but very fun.
I'm using ENTTEC's DMXIS hardware as an interface between DP and the lighting rig via USB and also using their PLUGIN run in DP and assigned MIDI tracks for each light.

I've got 6 songs in the set and designed their lights synced up with their tracks also running in DP. So, I've got 6 songs (sequences) in the DP session.
Problem is, when I switch or cue up the next sequence, the DMX will not "OPEN" ... meaning, it wont come up to the front window. It's still enabled as a plugin in the mixer but for some reason, DMX info wont transfer properly unless I dbl click on the plugin. I'm guessing it's resetting the info?

At any rate, once a new sequence is cued, I have to get into the mixer, dbl click the DMXIS plugin and then hit PLAY in DP and then all is good.

Is there a a way to keep the DMXIS plugin OPEN when I switch sequences? Or maybe should I just arrange the songs LINEAR in one sequence rather than use CHUNKS?

advice, please!!!
Dual Quad-Core 2.8 GHz Mac Pro 3,1 • Yosemite • 24 GB RAM • MOTU 2408mk3 (x's 2) • DP 10.xx • Finale 25 • Logic • PT 12 • +outboard gear
1nput0utput
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by 1nput0utput »

Am I understanding correctly that the lighting controller plug-in is an Audio Units instrument or effects plug-in? If that is true, then the problem is probably that Digital Performer is trying to pre-render the audio output of the plug-in, and the plug-in probably doesn't support pre-rendering. Pre-rendering is disabled when the plug-in window is open, and that's why it works as expected after you open the plug-in window. In the plug-in window mini-menu, choose the option "Run this instance in real-time." That will disable pre-rendering for the plug-in even when its window is closed.
The leading cause of wrong answers is asking the wrong questions.
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by wonder »

great. I'll try that.

In the meantime ... I've just setup the entire set into one chunk as one piece to run without loading new chunks. It's working fine.

I'll update if any changes :)
Dual Quad-Core 2.8 GHz Mac Pro 3,1 • Yosemite • 24 GB RAM • MOTU 2408mk3 (x's 2) • DP 10.xx • Finale 25 • Logic • PT 12 • +outboard gear
jrhans
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by jrhans »

I know this is an old thread, but if I get your attention, do you mind me asking:
Were you controlling specific lighting channels through MIDI controller data in tracks of DP? I've been trying to find info on how to do that (as opposed to simply triggering DMXIS presets, which is mostly what is documented). I've done this in older systems but can't find info on the controller numbers or MIDI data that would allow me to playback individual tracks equalling specific DMX channels.

Thanks for any info you care to share!
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by Shooshie »

jrhans wrote:I know this is an old thread, but if I get your attention, do you mind me asking:
Were you controlling specific lighting channels through MIDI controller data in tracks of DP? I've been trying to find info on how to do that (as opposed to simply triggering DMXIS presets, which is mostly what is documented). I've done this in older systems but can't find info on the controller numbers or MIDI data that would allow me to playback individual tracks equalling specific DMX channels.

Thanks for any info you care to share!
It's hard to give general lighting advice for sequencing light shows in DP, because every lighting controller tends to have its own way of doing things. The original poster was using a DMX device, for which a dedicated plugin did the translation from MIDI controller into lighting cues that the device understood. Without seeing his tracks, it would be hard to know exactly what that entailed, but that's what I'm talking about. You have to learn the ways of each device that you use.

Some devices use MIDI Show Control, and others use plain MIDI continuous controllers. I've seen a few that even used MIDI notes. One used MIDI notes, then when you ran out of notes it switched to Bank Select controllers, and when you ran out of those, it moved to Program Change controllers. So, your MIDI tracks were a wild amalgam of notes and controllers, and you had to keep track of what they were doing.

I used to run Microsoft Excel alongside DP, and as we'd create a lighting cue, I'd note the measure/time location of it, along with all its MIDI parameters, and a description if I had the time to put that in. I had to move fast, because we were working at... er... light speed. Switching over to MS Excel wasn't always easy, and sometimes I'd have to wait for a lull, then go back and catch up on my documentation. Eventually, I printed out the spreadsheet and put it in a notebook, where I could quickly find any cue and tell what it was supposed to be, how it was constructed, and what were its variables. That helped restore many a lost lighting cue.

But that's just half the story. With most lighting devices, you are not controlling the individual lights from DP, as in telling them where to point, what movements to make, what color, effects, brightness, etc., but what you send in MIDI is merely a cue number. In MIDI Show Control, it's a series of Hexadecimal Codes that describe the receiving device, the cue, and so forth, but ultimately it calls a 3 digit cue. When you go beyond 999 cues, you have to start over on a clean memory card in the lighting device, so you try to get all your cues for a single show to total less than 1000.

In turn, the lighting guy usually programs the actual actions of the lights and assigns them the cue number. This, he passes to you, and you place it where it belongs. Often for a particular effect the lighting guy may do a series of light combinations and assign them each a number, then you arrange them in MIDI to make them dance and relate to each other over time.

But the essential work is done in the lighting controller, to which you send a cue to call up that setting or series of movements.

However, for some devices you control the actual lights from DP. Usually those are less involved lights. For example, we used a star drop for which I could program colors and various x/y parameters, as well as having them move, flash, and other things, all from MIDI. It was challenging to get it right, since any command you sent it had an effect on the following commands. Get one out of order, and the whole thing was SNAFU. But most of my lighting device programming was a collaboration between the lighting guys and me.

Occasionally I worked with a LD who could program the whole works without needing any more than a minimal cue occasionally from MIDI. He'd get the timing and effects all perfect, and I'd just set it in motion at a particular bar, where it would run for basically a whole song, or perhaps a whole section of a song. The only problem with that was what happened when we edited a song. Change tempo? His design is suddenly not synchronized. I admire the skill of talented guys like that, but ultimately their work would be more flexible if they broke it up into cues and had me send it to them from the song. Collaboration is hard for people who are basically stars at what they do, and I understand that. I tried to keep those songs intact for that guy, out of respect to his skill and creativity. Also... they tend to be too expensive to call up for a little timing fix.

My advice: get the manual for any device you're going to use. Check eBay, ask the rental company, talk to a professor of lighting at a university, whatever you need to do to get your hands on the manual. Don't settle for the pages they think you need. You need the whole damn manual. Why? Because most of the time when things didn't work, it was because of something that was in a whole different part of the manual than the MIDI Chapter. I was the only one who ever solved those problems, because I was the only guy who had read their manuals. When things don't work, lighting guys like to say "See? That's what happens when you try to let the MIDI guy handle this. We need to go back to complete control by the LD at the lighting board." I heard that almost every day, but I'd tell them exactly the steps to take (Restart the board. Hold this button for 3 seconds. Tap that twice. Scroll to this menu. Choose THAT!) and it would always come back online, with things working just fine. But if you don't know that, they'll tell the show director that it's the MIDI guy's fault, and that it's going to happen in performance and screw up everything, so you'd better give us back complete control.

That's why you memorize all those things in the manual that could affect the handshake between light board and MIDI Interface, etc. Some light boards reset to defaults if the voltage drops below a certain level. I'd watch the Furman, and when it hit about 74v, I'd get ready to have to do a live reboot of the light board. The lighting guys wouldn't even know it happened, but I would, because that's when the board no longer recognize MIDI. You'd be surprised how bad the electrics are in a lot of the old theaters out there. Night clubs? Don't even get me started. Our whole show got brought to a halt one time because the club staff plugged in the coffee pots 5 minutes before intermission. That was a dinner-theater, actually, in Anaheim, CA. Suddenly there wasn't enough juice for US! (but there was coffee!)

To give you an idea of what you'd be putting out there in MIDI, you'd have a track for each lighting device's controller. Your MIDI Interface would have a cable running to each controller on a different MIDI channel. I used two MTP-AV's (MIDI Time Piece AV, by MOTU, for those who don't remember those days) for a total of 16 MIDI cables. I'd use between 2 and about 8 cables for lights, depending on how many devices were out there.

To write a MIDI Show Control cue, have the LD send you a cue from the device, and you record it in MIDI. That's right, just hit record for that track, and tell him GO. He'll send you a cue, and you can then double click it and open it to see what it contains. All the information will remain the same for each cue except for the ASCII section. You'll recognize the ASCII section, because it will have the 3-digit cue number written in real numbers (not hex), but they're done in a weird way: for a number like 128, it is written 31 32 38. Each "3" tells the MSC device that the next digit is ASCII. So, it's like saying ASCII-1, ASCII-2, ASCII-8 for 128. Cue number 1 would be 30 30 31. Get it? That's the part you change for each cue for that device. Just the ASCII part. You can copy the cue and paste it anywhere in that track. It appears in the little line that runs between the MIDI Keyboard notes and MIDI continuous controllers. It's known as the MIDI Switch line, I believe. Or maybe it appears among the continuous controllers. It's been many years, and I'd have to look to be sure, but you're looking for a SysEx Edit Box. Look it up in the DP manual under SysEx, or System Exclusive. So, you'll be copy/pasting SysEx boxes and editing the cue number in each one.

For a device that uses any other method, again it's one track per device, usually, but what you do and how you do it depend entirely on the guys who made the device. The lighting box and its controller, to be specific. Follow their directions carefully, and you'll see your lights spring to life.

Sorry if this is too much information. It's a wild world in the lighting game, and it's hard to prepare for it. If you go in knowing this much, you'll be this much ahead of me when I jumped in back in about 1992. I was the most hated guy in the lighting compound until I made it work. Then they cheered. But a lot of LDs still didn't like having to collaborate. Damned MIDI interlopers. :lol:

Shooshie
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jrhans
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by jrhans »

Thank you so much for the information -- it will be helpful and I truly appreciate it. Truth be told, I've run a couple different lighting control boards off of MIDI from within DP before. My particular question has to do specifically with the DMXIS interface mentioned in the post. Although I have the documentation for the device, all that is really delineated there is how to use the plugin version to set pre-programmed presets and then trigger them within your tracks. I would like to accomplish what you describe (and what I've done with MIDI-enabled light boards): specifically to control individual channel levels (like sliders) from MIDI controller data I lay down in a track over time.

Perhaps as I explore your comments further, it may help identify what I need to do. I'll keep digging.

Thanks again for taking your time and sharing your knowledge.
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by Shooshie »

I'm guessing that things have moved on quite far since I was doing it. MIDI control was not very common then. And DMX had not yet come into play, so I don't know anything about it. Typical post from me: comprehensive information about obsolete systems! Do you have the whole manual? Do you have the plugin and controller? I would presume so.

One thing that might help is a MIDI Monitor, to see what's getting transmitted through MIDI. If you don't have the Snoize MIDI Monitor, you should look it up and get it. Excellent monitor in that it's simple, quick, and shows you pretty much anything and/or everything. It has different modes that enable you to see inside SysEx transmissions, and so forth.

Shooshie
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by Shooshie »

Just curious: when you speak of a DMXIS plugin, are we talking about a MIDI plugin? Exactly what kind of track is this sitting on? Where do the MIDI channels get attached? Track or plugin? Is there an iOS device involved, or anything like that? Bluetooth, maybe?

I guess I could look this up at a lighting forum. Maybe you should try a DMXIS forum. Not being flippant; just practical. This seems to be more about DMXIS than about DP. DP is just the highway. DMXIS is the vehicle. Still, it would be cool to know what you find.

Shooshie
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by Tidwells@aol.com »

I use DMXIS live with DP 8 on stage. It is an AU plugin and can be automated like any other AU plugin in DP. I take snapshots, and record lighting changes for moving-head lights, one parameter at a time.

I think it should be possible to attach MIDI controllers (maybe from a custom console) to parameters within the plugin using DP. Doesn't the DP manual tell how? I haven't tried this. The downside of it is that standard MIDI controllers only have 128 steps of resolution, whereas DMX has higher resolution. So I've stuck with using automation within the DMXIS effect window to get full resolution.

The weird thing I discovered is that DMXIS is an AU plug-in, but it is used to output DMX signals via Entec's DMXIS box via USB. However, you need to set the audio output of the track you've inserted the DMXIS effect on to an unused output, or you will hear weird, useless clicks in your audio.

Doug
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by jrhans »

Thanks for the info, Doug.

Sounds like the operation you describe is the method I'm aware of -- the the resolution issue may be why that's the prescribed course by DMXIS documentation.

In the past I've set up a console in DP to correspond to channels in a lighting board, with MIDI controllers signaling channel fades, notes that signaled bump buttons, and patch commands that signaled other presets, etc. I'm mostly looking for the direct list of MIDI controllers that would signal such things through the DMXIS. By contrast, I find only info on how to set up and save "presets" through the plugin's graphical fader interface, and then use MIDI to signal and switch those presets.

Thanks again for your response.
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by Tidwells@aol.com »

Just to clarify: Have you tried enabling "automation record" for your DMXIS track (the red button on the track in the mixer window), then hitting "play" and performing DMXIS slider moves while the song plays? This method works for me to get very detailed control of my lighting. I don't use any DMXIS presets. You can create the equivalent of a preset for the start of each song by cuing up the beginning of the song, then setting all of the faders the way you want them and then taking a DP snapshot of the current state. Then you can proceed to enable "automation record" and hit the "play" button and record any fader changes you want to happen during the song. As long as you have the "overdub" button enabled in the transport window, you can keep adding more fader changes on subsequent passes without erasing what you've already done.

I use DP 8, but I suspect that the "lanes" feature introduced in DP 9 would allow you to see each DMXIS parameter individually for easier editing.

Doug
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by jrhans »

Great. I may try this and reverse-engineer from there. Thanks so much.
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by Shooshie »

Tidwells@aol.com wrote:I use DMXIS live with DP 8 on stage. It is an AU plugin and can be automated like any other AU plugin in DP. I take snapshots, and record lighting changes for moving-head lights, one parameter at a time.

I think it should be possible to attach MIDI controllers (maybe from a custom console) to parameters within the plugin using DP. Doesn't the DP manual tell how? I haven't tried this. The downside of it is that standard MIDI controllers only have 128 steps of resolution, whereas DMX has higher resolution. So I've stuck with using automation within the DMXIS effect window to get full resolution.

The weird thing I discovered is that DMXIS is an AU plug-in, but it is used to output DMX signals via Entec's DMXIS box via USB. However, you need to set the audio output of the track you've inserted the DMXIS effect on to an unused output, or you will hear weird, useless clicks in your audio.

Doug
OH man, that sounds like nirvana and cream compared to the crap I was describing from the 1990s. This would be wonderful to have. Such times we live in!

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by Tidwells@aol.com »

I purchased mine from Sweetwater. They have them in stock for $276. The software is free. You pay for the USB to DMX interface, which of course, you have to purchase to use the software.

Doug
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Re: Designing DMX Light Show in DP ... one problem ...

Post by jrhans »

doug:
Turns out that your "automation record" tip was just what I needed. I've been trying to find controller assignments, etc to no avail -- but just recording automation on a slider creates the insert and once I've got that insert, I can edit it to my hearts content. I thought I needed something assignable to record -- turns out it creates the assignment and inserts it (so-to-speak). Thanks!
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