6.02 - first thoughts

[Gabe S.]

Hi.

Until now, I've been unable to use DP6 because it couldn't seem to handle large sessions. (I've been proactive about it with MOTU, reporting my experiences, and they've been asking for my sessions, which I've been sending.)

I downloaded 6.02 and gave it a try, and as always in any computer software, there's good and bad.

The good news is that DP6.02 behaves WAYYYYYY better with a large session. It feels WAYYY more mature than the previous versions.

Notes:

• Biggest Limitation - DP6 simply cannot load nearly as many samples into RAM as DP5. It's not even close. I have to disable at least a couple Kontakt2 instances for the session to successfully load. So, for now, DP6 does not seem able to load as many samples into RAM as DP5. (It crashes if trying to load all the samples that fit into DP5.)

• I need to have the VI's running in Realtime. Pre-render is still not functioning for me on VI's. I get all sorts of weird behavior that's hard to describe like hitting play, and a sound from a VI sounds like it's already half-way through playing.....But if I run the VI's in Real TIme, it's all completely fine.

• Pre-render for other non-VI plugins seems ok, but I haven't run that fully through it's paces yet.

• DP6 opens DP5 sessions very quickly and efficiently now. DP6 used to take forever.

• I see the same odd output assign issues someone else mentioned, ie seeing a stereo pair of outputs that should say Bus out 3-4, say something like Bus Out 3-47. If you close the session and reopen, it's fine. But, I also run into this in DP5.13.

• I know this isn't a new complaint, but since this is my first time really being able to dig into DP6, I wish they had not moved the mini-menus to the right side of the windows......that's quite a pain and really unmotivated. I would like to hear the explanation for moving it. On the bigger windows, it's REALLY far away now......I think someone here mentioned he had 3 screens hooked up and now he had to navigate three screens away to get to the mini menus.....

• I've been suffering from a problem in DP5 that's followed me to DP6. It also followed me from my G5 to my 8Core Mac Pro----and I did a complete fresh computer install when I moved from the G5 to Intel---no migrations. I must convert an audio file to my session format before importing it otherwise DP crashes 100% of the time. For example, if I want to import an mp3 into my session, I CANNOT just drag it onto the tracks window and then keep working. It will import the file onto the Tracks window and then the dreaded spinning beach ball shows and that's it---I must Force Quit. I can't even import a 16 bit file if I'm in 24 bit. If I'm working in 24/44 and drag in a 24/44 file, all is well.

• I've been hoping that DP could allow for longer names than 31 characters. DP6 doesn't change that situation. I wonder why that limit is there. It's been a problem for me.

• I miss the arrow that would put the current screen in the background......I use that all the time in busy sessions......


By the way, I don't know if anyone else ever mentioned this, but there's really TWO files you should keep around if you want to switch quickly back and forth between DP5 and DP6------the "MASAudioUnit Support.bundle" and the "Audio Unit Info Cache" for each version of the program. If you keep the caches for each version, then DP won't have to rescan each time it starts up.

I'm going to explore the possibilities of doing a little more work in DP6 now. The MAIN limitation I see is that I can't load as many samples into RAM as I could with DP5--which is a problem for me because my templates are a certain size. I wonder if there's anything that can be done about that before it (hopefully) goes to 64bit someday and there's (hopefully) no RAM issues at all. And I have to ask the question: Does anyone know if a future 64bit Kontakt 3 will be able to load tons of samples into RAM beyond the 32 bit limitation of a 32 bit host? Because I guess that would help the problem.

Thanks.
-gabe

[Frodo]

• I see the same odd output assign issues someone else mentioned, ie seeing a stereo pair of outputs that should say Bus out 3-4, say something like Bus Out 3-47. If you close the session and reopen, it's fine. But, I also run into this in DP5.13.

I haven't had quite this problem in DP5, but I have seen this in DP6.x.

• I know this isn't a new complaint, but since this is my first time really being able to dig into DP6, I wish they had not moved the mini-menus to the right side of the windows......that's quite a pain and really unmotivated. I would like to hear the explanation for moving it. On the bigger windows, it's REALLY far away now......I think someone here mentioned he had 3 screens hooked up and now he had to navigate three screens away to get to the mini menus.....

There are a few items which have been moved that I don't mind, but I must confess that I trip every time I go in search of the mini menus. In addition to the total brain flip after YEARS of accessing these in the upper left corner, I've yet to get into a groove with them in a new location. A lot of the similar-looking triangles do little to serve as clear reminders, so it's a tad ironic that we can now choose to turn off the help balloons-- but I've had to keep mine on as a mixed blessing.

It's just really odd that at times my gut sends my eye and the mouse to one part of a window to perform a task that has been relocated. When the feature I was looking for is not to be found, I often forget what I was looking for altogether.

• I've been suffering from a problem in DP5 that's followed me to DP6. It also followed me from my G5 to my 8Core Mac Pro----and I did a complete fresh computer install when I moved from the G5 to Intel---no migrations. I must convert an audio file to my session format before importing it otherwise DP crashes 100% of the time. For example, if I want to import an mp3 into my session, I CANNOT just drag it onto the tracks window and then keep working. It will import the file onto the Tracks window and then the dreaded spinning beach ball shows and that's it---I must Force Quit. I can't even import a 16 bit file if I'm in 24 bit. If I'm working in 24/44 and drag in a 24/44 file, all is well.

There are additional preferences to deal with reconciling file formats on import. When you get the beach ball, a series of conversions may be in progress. I would open the Background Processing window to see what's going on before doing a force-quit, although I can't speak to how much faster or slower this process my be in 6 than 5. But you should be able to at least get this working somehow.

[Shooshie]

Wow, that was very well done. Thanks, Gabe, for taking the time both for us and for MOTU. Of course, time spent on this with MOTU is time spent on our behalf, also, so I thank you doubly.

Shooshie

[monkey man]

Indeed. Fantasic effort, Gabe. Thank you!

Great advice concerning the caches too.

[synergy543]

By the way, I don't know if anyone else ever mentioned this, but there's really TWO files you should keep around if you want to switch quickly back and forth between DP5 and DP6------the "MASAudioUnit Support.bundle" and the "Audio Unit Info Cache" for each version of the program. If you keep the caches for each version, then DP won't have to rescan each time it starts up.

Where are these files located? I can't seem to find them (yes, checked with Spotlight).

Thanks,

Greg

[Gabe S.]

Where are these files located? I can't seem to find them (yes, checked with Spotlight).

MAS AudioUnit Support.bundle - [Top Level of hard drive]--->Library--->Audio--->Plug-Ins--->MAS

Audio Unit Info Cache - [Top Level of hard drive]--->Users--->[your user account]--->Library--->Preferences--->Digital Performer™

-gabe

[danworks]

Hi Gabe,

many things have been arbitrarily changed on DP6 without any apparent reason.

Things that were "upper left" have been moved "upper right" (mini menu), as actions that were "drag fm top" now are "drag fm bottom", drawers ... puff, gone. Maybe not seeing the whole picture doesn't really help us to understand what's going on, but it is odd indeed.

For anyone interested, you can go in GETTING STARTED manual at page 72, see what has been changed fm DP5, and what we have to do now to perform what we were doing before. It's quite an interesting reading.

ciao

[synergy543]

Thanks Gabe and thank you for sharing your experience and observations too.

Greg

[Gabe S.]

btw, to make the process efficient, I have four folder aliases on my dock.

-a folder I created called "DP5 files"
-a folder I created called "DP6 files"
-MAS folder
-Digital Performer™ folder

Let's say I was in DP 5 and wanted to work in DP6:

-I just click all four of those folder icons on my dock so the folders appear on my desktop
-I move the files from the MAS and Digital Performer™ folders into the "DP 5 files" folder
-I move the two files from the the "DP 6 files" folder into each of the proper folders
-Launch DP6

The changeover takes less than a minute. And because DP6 doesn't have to rescan, it boots very quickly.

In this way, it's actually easy and efficient to switch from 6 to 5 or 5 to 6.

Cheers.
-gabe

[willheim]

Thank you. Nice. I hadn't noticed, but you are dead on about the amount of samples that 6.02 can load - I am always hitting the wall on that, early on, and am left wondering how is it that with 16 gigs of ram I get tapped out so quickly.

And yes I have the activity monitor on so I can monitor.

I again was banging on a remix today of TONS of audio and UA plug ins (Quad core new card) altiverb and some PSP and MOTU stuff - and it just is pretty darn solid with the audio.

[synergy543]

Thanks for the additional tips Gabe.

btw, as you are using such large template files, how do you switch between cues without long load times? Or are you using something like Plogue Bidule as cOmpOser demonstrated?

[Gabe S.]

Thank you. Nice. I hadn't noticed, but you are dead on about the amount of samples that 6.02 can load - I am always hitting the wall on that, early on, and am left wondering how is it that with 16 gigs of ram I get tapped out so quickly.

The vast majority of applications on Mac right now are 32 bit apps. That means generally that each application should theoretically be able to address a max of around 4GB of RAM. In practice, I watch DP5 get into 3.5GB territory. But that's it for a single app. Now, you could have a bunch of apps open each taking 4GB. But in 32-bit-land, no app can take 16GB of RAM all on it's own. For some reason, DP6 won't go past 2.8GB of RAM before becoming unstable.

This is why 64-bit is going to be such a huge deal for musicians. The RAM ceiling is effectively removed in 64-bit. According to wikipedia, the max RAM ceiling in 64-bit-land is 17 billion Gigabytes.....hehe....well, that solves the RAM issue which I think is the largest issue affecting musicians now----not CPU power. We have plenty of CPU power at our disposal. I have the original 8-core MacPro and don't feel any CPU limitations. Now, (for $7000), you can have a computer with probably more than 2 times the power.

-gabe

[Gabe S.]

btw, as you are using such large template files, how do you switch between cues without long load times? Or are you using something like Plogue Bidule as cOmpOser demonstrated?

I just have long load times. I also have two outside pcs. So, the sounds in the Mac are really only a third of what I have loaded for use with the template. I'm considering another external computer, which would allow me to load less in the Mac. But I'm not excited by that prospect. Although it may be simply necessary to run the upcoming string library LA Scoring Strings. My guess is that that library will require all the RAM resources of a computer all to itself if you want all the sections loaded. Of course that means the 3rd external computer is already spoken for......which means a fourth computer......ah the fun never ends.....(Like I said in my post above, I think the answer is 64 bit.)

Anyway.....no clever way around long load times for me yet.

-gabe

[frankf]

Hi.

Notes:

• Biggest Limitation - DP6 simply cannot load nearly as many samples into RAM as DP5. It's not even close. I have to disable at least a couple Kontakt2 instances for the session to successfully load. So, for now, DP6 does not seem able to load as many samples into RAM as DP5. (It crashes if trying to load all the samples that fit into DP5.

What VIs are you using? Are you streaming? if yes, are your sample libraries apread over multiple physical drives? I routinely run 3 instance of Kontakt 3, Stylus RMX, Ivory, Omnisphere, and Mach 5 on my Mac Pro

• I need to have the VI's running in Realtime. Pre-render is still not functioning for me on VI's. I get all sorts of weird behavior that's hard to describe like hitting play, and a sound from a VI sounds like it's already half-way through playing.....But if I run the VI's in Real TIme, it's all completely fine.

Yes, I've turned off all pre-rendering as well

• I see the same odd output assign issues someone else mentioned, ie seeing a stereo pair of outputs that should say Bus out 3-4, say something like Bus Out 3-47. If you close the session and reopen, it's fine. But, I also run into this in DP5.13.

This is actually my biggest complaint with DP6.02 Sometimes restarting the MAS audio engine will fix this (open the Hardware Setup window, then close)

• I know this isn't a new complaint, but since this is my first time really being able to dig into DP6, I wish they had not moved the mini-menus to the right side of the windows......that's quite a pain and really unmotivated.

Although I've become used to this, I can see your point. There are new Commands which can be used to get to many of the mini-menu items, but not all. I'd like to see MOTU include all Mini-menu items as Commands

• I miss the arrow that would put the current screen in the background......I use that all the time in busy sessions......

As an alternative, DP now conforms to standard OS window format: minimization works with DP windows- double click on window title bar to send to dock. Has anyone tried Window Shades shareware app with DP?

I'm going to explore the possibilities of doing a little more work in DP6 now. The MAIN limitation I see is that I can't load as many samples into RAM as I could with DP5--which is a problem for me because my templates are a certain size.
Thanks.
-gabe

Maybe you should check out running one or several Kontakt 3 instances as standalone or using Bidule. There's a great ongoing thread on the list about using it - even included video tutorials on setup.

Please keep us posted on your experience with DP6, and thanks for the detailed post.

Frank Ferrucci

[synergy543]

(Like I said in my post above, I think the answer is 64 bit.)

Anyway.....no clever way around long load times for me yet.

But 64-bit still doesn't address the long load times whereas using Bidule does. With libs loaded in Bidule instead of DP, you could easily switch between projects without any need to reload the libs. Have you seen the video on Bidule templates with DP.

Seems like a great way to work to me. If you don't think so, I'd like to hear why.

Greg