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DP 5 stuck MIDI notes / MIDI bombs still there

For seeking technical help with Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS.

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This forum is for seeking solutions to technical problems involving Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS, as well as feature requests, criticisms, comparison to other DAWs.

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:29 pm

billf wrote:Guys, I don't think this is a DP problem. I was in Logic last night playing around with it, and I had the experience of stuck MIDI notes. It seems to me that the problem is more likely to be in the Audio/MIDI part of OSX or the MIDI interface itself.


I tend to think it is a DP AND CoreMIDI issue of incompatibility. If it were DP, then restarting the prog should fix it.It doesn't. Only rebooting does (logging out doesn't, so it is systemic.)


But as I only use DP in the studio, I don't mind an occassional blip. In performance... TOTALLY unaccaeptable and as DP IS intended for that purpose, they really must fix this. Clearly, they are in denial about the issue and that sucks. Very unprofessional of them. IMO. But I'll still buy DP. I just cannot recommend it for live use.
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Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:30 pm

billf wrote:
instacue wrote:For what it's worth, and I've mentioned this on this forum before, on the same OSX 3.9 Mac, using multiple MTP AVs, no notes EVER stick in DP 4.12 and they almost always stick in every DP version after 4.5.

If it was an OSX problem, notes would stick in DP 4.12, but they don't ever.


I've never had stuck notes in DP. Only in Logic, and that problem started with Logic 7.2.

On the MTP, has the driver version been consistent?


Well then, looks like a core MIDI issue, doesn't it?
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Postby billf » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:45 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
billf wrote:I've never had stuck notes in DP. Only in Logic, and that problem started with Logic 7.2.

On the MTP, has the driver version been consistent?


Well then, looks like a core MIDI issue, doesn't it?


Dunno... that would be my guess. But here's another tidbit.

For a long time I could not get Unisyn to handshake with my MIDI gear (through a MTPAV). It just wouldn't work. So I set it aside.

Last night I decided to try it again, and bingo, it starts handshaking and pulling MIDI via bulk data dump just like it is supposed to.

All this makes me think either something is wrong in Core MIDI or with the interaction between the MTPAV and OSX. But one thing is certain, something isn't right with MIDI.
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Postby Noella » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:16 pm

I have a MOTU MIDI timepiece. It was pretty bad in the beginning, but I don't notice it much anymore. Maybe, they learned to play nice together....hahahaaa.. But I would just hit Cmd "1" for the Panic button in DP and everything is fine. It's just frustrating when I play back my MIDI and notes get stuck for no reason in the middle of the song...especially when I'm recording the sounds from my modules.
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Postby tommymandel » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:29 pm

I heard something about the DP Preference: Play & Record/MIDI Solo & Patch Thru/
"Use CoreMIDI Patch Thru"
having a bearing on performance.
Is it related to this stuck notes thread? :twisted: :evil: :lol:
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Postby doodles » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:08 am

David Polich wrote:There are some worrisome issues with DP5 (like the pre-rendering feature in con junction with pitch correction) but I honestly believe that the stuck MIDI notes is a problem with non MOTU MIDI devices. I've been a Performer user since 1989, and without exception, every problem I had with MIDI notes was either a faux pas on my part, or it was a non-MOTU interface.

I'd also suspect multiple MIDI devices as being part of a problem as well. I'm not sure why anyone would need three MTP AV's and additional MIDI interfaces beyond that, but in any event that's a recipe for trouble there.

.


nope and nope.

i use only a motu MIDI timepiece AV (only 1) and get stuck notes on dp 4.61.

But quitting DP works for me - i don't have to reboot to cure it.
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Postby boonier » Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:15 am

tommymandel wrote:I heard something about the DP Preference: Play & Record/MIDI Solo & Patch Thru/
"Use CoreMIDI Patch Thru"
having a bearing on performance.
Is it related to this stuck notes thread? :twisted: :evil: :lol:


Are you saying 'use it' or 'don't use it'?

I never used to have this problem, and its been slowly emerging on my kit and I'm noticing more people are reporting it. Is it because of updates to the OS, or rather the preferences for Audio/MIDI becoming corrupted and wreaking havoc with DPs MIDI management?

Aggregate audio worked fine at first and then slowly problems started to creep in. (Incidently has that bug been fixed? (the popping and clicking using multiple interfaces one) - Anyone dare to test it? :) )

Would it be worth making a note of our current MIDI setups, deleting them and starting fresh, trashing any pref files if they exist?.....
1ghz 17" Powerbook (currently), 1gig ram, Tiger 10.4.8, DP 4.6.1, Motu 828, Edirol FA-101, Bidule, Reason, SuperCollider, synths, hardware FX, cables, plugs, plug adaptors, extension leads, dust, vacuum cleaner
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Postby dixiechicken » Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:14 am

It seems to me there's very varying experiences on the "stuck MIDI note theme".
Also system setups with hardware, VI:s other apps and workflows etc seem to vary a lot. ( not surprisingly :wink: )

Now I dont think Motu is in a state of denial of the actual problem - however
if the problem isn't reproducible in a predictable way - it will be very hard to track down and isolate.
How much time and money have each of you with MIDI problems - put into your systems.
If Motu were to duplicate 5 such systems in their "lab" it would cost a lot of money and time.

Because of the discrepancies of the reports I would personally favour the "interaction theory" - no one specific apps fault.
( just a wild guess - and not much help I know - I'm sorry :cry: )

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Postby melodesiac420 » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:01 pm

Here's my prob. My MIDI seems to do fine when I first start a project, but it seems as I record more and more audio into a session, the problem gets worse and worse until my MIDI is just completely rendered useless. I wish there were a word to describe the feeling other than "HEARTBREAKING", but there is not.

I've got a relatively small MIDI setup consisting of MTP AV, Roland JP-8000, and E-Mu Proteus 2000. I used to never have any kind of MIDI problems until DP 4.5. In fact, the reason I'm back here (uncicornation) right now, instead of working on my current project is because I'm having the same stupid problem.

In the current project I'm working on, I'm only running around 10 Stereo tracks, very few plug-ins (Less than 5, only neccesary roll-off eq's, etc.) At the beginning of the project, my MIDI worked fine.. That is until I got about 7 stereo tracks up, then, per the usual, the hanging notes and bombs started right back up as soon as I record enabled a MIDI track and started playing.

IMHO, if it is a problem between DP and Apple, it is DP's responsibility to fix it, as they are the ones making a product to integrate with another. For example, if I were to start a business selling leather iPod cases, and iPods didn't fit in them properly, that wouldn't be an Apple problem, that would be my problem, as noone would want them because they didn't work properly. Motu definitely needs to figure this out, or they will suffer in the long run. I mean, if someone asks me how I like using DP, of course I'm gonna tell them how the MIDI doesn't work properly on some systems and that Motu has not even addressed the issue. I just don't understand how a reputable company will not even acknowledge the fact that there is an obvious problem and there has been for some time. I was on the Waves website just the other day and they actually list the problems that some users have experienced with certain systems before you download an update.

I'll be the first one to admit that I'm not the most wealthy person in the world, and I can't afford to keep buying new software until I find the one I like the best. I love all the features and things that DP has, but, for me, MIDI is an integral part of my recording process, and without it, DP IS THE MOST EXPENSIVE TURD I HAVE EVER BOUGHT!

-melodesiac-
I'm not really a smartass..... However....I did stay at a Holiday Inn Select last night.
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Postby bjornln » Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:05 pm

Hi fellow unicornationists,

Justa few observations..


I run VI's as well as a bunch of outboard stuff.
I have only had two stuck notes incident (in the last 10 years or so) that I could not find the solution to...

Here's a few pointers / ideas that might help you out.

1. MTP av user: Be sure your backup battery is OK. I have had to change battery in two of my MTP av's, in order to "cure" some really weird problems, such as intermittent routing showing up, from one session to the next, only to disappear again... new backup battery solved it.

2. Check your logs ( /Utilities/Console ) and go through the Crash Reporter logs and check for something that could have anything that has anything to do with MIDI (or DP, USB, Coremidi etc ) .... Then make a copy of this (all of it) and then erase the whole log.
next time a stuck note happens, check the console again and see if you can find any trace of it. ( Please be sure you make a note of what time it happen so you can be sure that your log enrty has some thing to do with this, and not something that happen 10 days ago

3. Check the leds on your interface (if your interface have them). my MTP av's light up like christmas tree when a stuck note appears.

Just a few things of the top of my head...

Best,
B
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Postby Shooshie » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:27 pm

melodesiac420 wrote: I love all the features and things that DP has, but, for me, MIDI is an integral part of my recording process, and without it, DP IS THE MOST EXPENSIVE TURD I HAVE EVER BOUGHT!


I'm sorry for your pain, but I have to say that MIDI is the most important aspect of my work, with audio recording and mixing running a close second. I spend a lot of time perfecting my MIDI performances, and I just don't get stuck notes. Well, I take that back. A couple of weeks ago, I did something which I can no longer remember, and it caused notes to get stuck twice. I had to reboot the computer to stop it. So, it's happened twice in about 20 years. And that's all. DP is, in my opinion, king of MIDI apps.

Have you tried different options for MIDI Patch Thru? Are you sure you don't have any MIDI loops? Have you checked all the settings on your MIDI interface for something odd? Just ideas.


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Postby tommymandel » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:12 pm

I second (or third) Shooshie's suspicion that MIDI Loops might be at the root of stuck notes. They're insidious, as some outs act as thru's under mysterious, sometimes undetectable circumstances. Given all the possible routes of the MIDI signal, perhaps even ground loop situations not protected by opto-isolator design, with routers, for example. . . This could also be the unifying principle to varying systems' behaviors.
As far as the recurrent assertion that these problems creep in gradually, with more and more data in Projects, even audio data, hmmmm.....
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Stuck Notes and Audio Click

Postby dacart » Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:55 pm

I posted this on MOTU-Mac and wanted to share here as well.

I never had stuck notes until DP5 BUT I discovered that it only happened if I recorded MIDI using the metronome with Audio click! If I don't record with the metronome, no stuck notes. If I record with the metronome using MIDI click again, no stuck notes. Also once the stuck notes start you can use Command-1 to turn off the notes (except for NI VI's for some reason) but they will continue to stick until and unless you quit out of DP and reopen it. I have tried to get others to reproduce this without success so I would be curious to hear if anyone here can get this same behavior to happen.

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Postby pencilina » Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:05 pm

Dan, I usually record MIDI with audio click and haven't had stuck notes in a while so I don't think that's the prob. I've always regarded the stuck note problem as core MIDI occasionally dropping MIDI note offs. This happens to me every once in a while. BTW, I rarely use VIs in DP- I have a couple PCs and a nord modular. Sometimes instead of restarting I'll go into apple MIDI setup and go into "test" mode and click on the offending device which can clear the problem. There have been other times when unplugging my MIDI express 128 clears things up(???). I havent had a stuck notes in a while and have been doing A LOT of MIDI work recently. For what its worth my MIDI thru settings-> MIDI "patch through mode" is set to auto channelize, "core MIDI patch thru" is checked, "patch thru in background checked". Eventually someone will figure out this BS.

Melodesiac, I feel your pain. MOTU can sometimes be very Bush/Cheney-like in its addressing of problems = denial and not fixing things. But, you might have a different stupid problem with some other piece of SW. There's always at least one ••••ed up thing on every system. So some mac/DP voodoo might be in order. Try unplugging your MIDI boxes and see if that helps. Maybe another usb port. Maybe shuffle inputs on your interface. You shouldn't have to but eventually you'll probably figure it out. I hope you do and tell us!

Good luck.
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MIDI stuck notes

Postby danthebirdman » Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:15 am

For the sake of supporting the "it might not be DP" theory:

I've only had a few stuck note problems and most seemed to be related to core MIDI things, like MIDI communication ceasing suddenly. I would close DP and open 2-3 other programs and still no MIDI.

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